Pushing!

[pepeguitarra]

As the question shows, I must be new to developing films. So, here is the question: What does PUSHING mean?

For example, I read in TOO many places (including books, Kodak manuals, etc.) that a Tri-X 400 pushed to EI 3,200 .

What does this pushing actually mean?
Is it something that you do at the time of taking the shot, or at the time of developing the film?
What actions are actually done when developing a film to PUSH it to a higher EI number.
What does EI mean?

Is it better to PUSH a film? What is wrong with just developing as it is?

I appreciate your answers. Keep in mind that this may seem to you as easy as A,B,C, but for new cult members, it can be very complicated (I have not been able to find it with Google.)

 

[jojoman2]

When you push film you are intentionally underexposing it at the time you take the shot, and then intentionally overdeveloping it at the time of developing the film. You'll lose shadow detail the progressively the further you push the film from box speed. I'm not well versed on stand development to bring out the most detail in the shadows, but I get good results pushing tri x to 1600.

 

[pepeguitarra]

When you push film you are intentionally underexposing it at the time you take the shot, and then intentionally overdeveloping it at the time of developing the film. You'll lose shadow detail the progressively the further you push the film from box speed. I'm not well versed on stand development to bring out the most detail in the shadows, but I get good results pushing tri x to 1600.

Do you have an example of a shot Tri-X 400 pushed to 1600?

 

[jojoman2]

Save​

 

[35photo]

As the question shows, I must be new to developing films. So, here is the question: What does PUSHING mean?

For example, I read in TOO many places (including books, Kodak manuals, etc.) that a Tri-X 400 pushed to EI 3,200 .

What does this pushing actually mean?
Is it something that you do at the time of taking the shot, or at the time of developing the film?
What actions are actually done when developing a film to PUSH it to a higher EI number.
What does EI mean?

Is it better to PUSH a film? What is wrong with just developing as it is?

I appreciate your answers. Keep in mind that this may seem to you as easy as A,B,C, but for new cult members, it can be very complicated (I have not been able to find it with Google.)

Basically if your going to push a film from say 400 to 1600 that's 2 stop under exposure.. So you would set your cameras ISO setting to 1600 and meter it as such.. Then when you process the film you have to accommodate the 2 stop under exposure, in development usually developing it a little longer to get the images to come out right... If you are using say T-Max developer which is a good developer for pushing and it should have starting times for different ISOs on the packaging.. There will be more grain and contrast, how much more depends on the film.. Pushing Tri-X 400 vs T-Max 400 you will have more grain with pushed Tri-X.. You would usually push a film if you were in conditions that are are the darker side and you need a shutter speed to be able to hand hold the camera.. I that's a good start..

 

[Roger Hicks]

When you push film you are intentionally underexposing it at the time you take the shot, and then intentionally overdeveloping it at the time of developing the film. You'll lose shadow detail the progressively the further you push the film from box speed.. . .

Sums it up perfectly. For the OP: EI = Exposure Index, to distinguish it from ISO. ISO has fixed standards for density in the thinnest part of the negative (so-called "shadows") and contrast: EIs don't. "Pushing" to an EI above the ISO always gives more contrast, and loses shadow detail.

See http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps iso speeds.html

Cheers,

R.

 

[Photog9000]

Back in my film days, I used to push Tri-X two stops to gain added shutter speed for sports. On my first trip to England I exclusively shot Tri-X both indoors and outdoors to gain the speed mostly for indoors since I was shooting handheld. Personally, I love the look of Tri-X pushed two stops and have even seen it pushed as high as ISO6400 with good results by other photographers. For me, two stops was my limit. These days I seldom shoot Tri-X other than the rated speed as I am shooting it with only a Yashica Electro35 GS. I feel I can still handhold as slow shutter speeds if I pay attention at my age!

 

[Photog9000]

Save​

You did a great job of exposing and processing here!!😱

 

[Moogie77]

Hey everybody,

I am also new to this forum, film, rangefinder, self developing, ...

Still on a business trip in China and knowing all of the new nice equipment is waiting for me at home when I come back. So started already now to understand some basics and make up my mind how I want to shoot.

My basic idea is to also push tri-x 400 2 or even 3 times by using a yellow lens at the same time.
And here is now exactly the point where I struggle.

If I use the yellow filter, I change the picture 1 stop back, so basically when I push to 1600 in fact it is the same like without filter I pushed to 800.
So when I want to push 2 stops and use a yellow filter, I would have to push it 3 stops to 3200 to get the result I want, right?

By then later developing the film, do I change the time like pushed 2 or 3 stops?

I hope I explained my struggle point well enough to understand.

Hope somebody can help.

Wish you a nice weekend.

Miguel

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Hey everybody,

I am also new to this forum, film, rangefinder, self developing, ...

Still on a business trip in China and knowing all of the new nice equipment is waiting for me at home when I come back. So started already now to understand some basics and make up my mind how I want to shoot.

My basic idea is to also push tri-x 400 2 or even 3 times by using a yellow lens at the same time.
And here is now exactly the point where I struggle.

If I use the yellow filter, I change the picture 1 stop back, so basically when I push to 1600 in fact it is the same like without filter I pushed to 800.
So when I want to push 2 stops and use a yellow filter, I would have to push it 3 stops to 3200 to get the result I want, right?

By then later developing the film, do I change the time like pushed 2 or 3 stops?

I hope I explained my struggle point well enough to understand.

Hope somebody can help.

Wish you a nice weekend.

Miguel

If you're using a handheld meter, with film pushed to 1600 and a filter that has a one-stop filter factor (like the Yellow one you're asking about), you would set the meter to 800 to compensate for the filter, but would develop the film for 1600.

If you're using a camera's built-in meter it can get more complex. In theory, the meter in the camera, if it meters through the lens like a Leica M6/M7/MP or one of the Cosina Voigtlanders, should compensate for the light lost to the filter, so you would set the camera to 1600.

In reality, most built in meters I have seen are too sensitive to yellow and won't give the full one stop compensation needed when metering through the filter.

I just checked two high end professional 35mm cameras I own to see how they meter through a yellow filter. The filter was a Yellow K2 Hoya filter. The cameras were an Olympus OM-4T and a Canon New F-1. The Canon only gave 1/3 stop more exposure through the filter, and the Olympus, astonishingly, gave NO increase through the filter at all! Remember that a K2 Yellow filter has a one stop filter factor, so metering through this filter would underexposure 2/3 stop with the Canon New F-1 and would underexpose a full stop on the Olympus OM-4T.

Because of this (its even worse with a red 25, where many built-in meters will underexpose 2 stops!) I use a handheld meter when I use colored filters for BW work.

 

[Rob-F]

Moogie77,

The idea that the filter always has a "filter factor" of one stop is a myth. Filters affect different colors differently; in fact, that is the whole point of using them. A yellow filter holds back blue light strongly, and green light somewhat. It passes yellow, orange, and red freely. So if we photograph something that is yellow, orange, or red, the "filter factor" needs only to correct for the absorption of the filter, say, maybe 1/10 to 1/4 f-stop. A green color would require more correction that that, while blue would need a lot more, if you want it to show up.

So if you wanted to photograph a yellow balloon against a blue sky, and you want the balloon to be light against a dark sky, you would need almost no filter factor at all; maybe a quarter stop at most. This is because the filter will hold back the blue sky, while freely passing the yellow balloon.

Then again, If you photograph a gray scene with little color, on a gray day, you would apply the one-stop filter factor; if you are going to use the filter at all. But why would you? Filters only increase contrast if there are any colors in the scene. No colors, no contrast enhancement.

So to answer your question, we need to know what you are photographing, and what the colors are. Are you pushing the film to photograph at night? I doubt if I would use a filter for that. Are you pushing to get more speed for a daylight scene where you need high shutter speeds, like a motorcycle race? Then you would probably apply a filter factor. How much? maybe one stop for a Nikon Y52 filter, or a K3 cloud filter. Maybe just 1/2 stop for a Y48 or other similar light yellow filter.

Can you write about what you plan to photograph and why you need to push the film? This will make the question easier to answer.

 

[znapper]

IMO pushing only works if you already have the light.

If you push because you really have to, you get murky, high contrast shots and thin, difficult negatives.

 

[Moogie77]

Thanks to all of you for the refreshing and detailed answers, showing I know a lot less than I thought I already know about the theory 🙂

I want to use it for 2 b/w purposes:
- for street photography (which I do already now with digital) simply to get fast shutter speeds by high f-stops and less light
- for very high contrast grainy b/w pictures with dark shadows and light shiny sunny (or light) parts

At home is waiting a M6 with a voigtlander color skopar 35mm f/2.5 lens and a Leica Leitz Yellow Vintage filter.
Developer will be HC-110.

Hope this helps to understand my purpose a bit better.
Please forgive me, if I did not explain the right thing or missed something important as I am not so sure what else exactly would be good to explain...

Anyway I am new to rangefinders and need to experiment a lot in the beginning which will be part of the whole fun.

I am so thankful to all of you helping a newby like me.

Cheers, Miguel

 

[Moogie77]

Hey everybody,

Any further recommendations?
After I described the details you asked me about, nobody replied anymore.

Hope you can help me.

Thanks a lot, Miguel

 

[BLKRCAT]

Why bother using a colored filter? The main reason people push is to get speed. It's already discussed in this thread. Also discussed is filter factor. I would still give a deep yellow one stop. Filters take away speed.

So you essentially are pushing the film to get speed and using filters which arguably can reduce speed. Just lose the filter and shoot without.

I'm not sure what the allure of grit and high contrast is these days. People shoot for it which is strange to me. You could always end up shooting normal, processing nice as its supposed to and adding grit and contrast in post. You'll have much more control over your final image.

 

[Moogie77]

Hi BLKRAT,

Yes, thanks for the interesting point.
I will definitely also try this as well.

Just in another website I found this technique I described with the filter and the pushing and the sample pictures I liked pretty much, so I thought this would be the way I also want to shoot the pictures...
But at that site there were not enough explanations so I found this thread here and thought it's the right one to get some more insights on how this would work in detail.
As Rob-F mentioned it would be good to give you guys some more details, that's what I did...

Thanks, Miguel

 

[Steve M.]

You use filters for different effects. A yellow filter will give more contrast, darken the skies a little, and give more definition to clouds, while a red one will do the same thing but more dramatically (sometimes too much so). I always use one or the other w/ my photography.

For what it's worth, Tri-X usually works best when shot at 200-250 and developed normally. That's closer to the rated speed than 400, which was more of a marketing gimmick for Kodak. I made tests shooting it at 100, 200 and 400 ISO and liked them all! The 100 had the shadows blocked up a little (shot it at 50 w/ a yellow filter), but the tonality was great. The 400 shots were my least favorite, but hey, it was Tri-X. You really can't do much better than Tri-X in D76 at practically any ISO, even after all these years.

 

[Moogie77]

Hi Steve,

Thanks a lot for the input.

Seems like there are different opinions out there.
As I am anyway new to this whole topic I will experiment then with some different setups.

Once I have some experience I can also share with you.

Nice weekend, Miguel