squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Everything is about Ned's preference for film, surely you know that by now?
MIkhail
-
Peanuts, really.
willie_901
Veteran
Tom has a point.
When a Fujifilm X-T1 (maybe X100T too?) firmware update enabled electronic shutter operation chaos ensued among a small, but soon to be puzzled/frustrated, group of users.
I hope Leica's ES implementation is more sophisticated. In some cases even the slight motion of the photographer unconsciously leaning forward when the shutter is pressed causes spatial distortion. And the X-T1 system is not compatible with flash. I certainly hope Leica does not provide an automated MS & ES option where the camera decides to switch to ES in some situations.
Leica photographers are more experienced and probably won't use ES gratuitously unlike many Fujifilm owners did/do.
MIkhail
-
IMHO:
If, at this day and age, the lack of any features of your camera (any camera) is what’s holding you back from making decent pictures, rest assured: you will continue making pictures of your cats and people’s backs (as a proverbial “street photo”) regardless of what camera they release next…
If, at this day and age, the lack of any features of your camera (any camera) is what’s holding you back from making decent pictures, rest assured: you will continue making pictures of your cats and people’s backs (as a proverbial “street photo”) regardless of what camera they release next…
Corran
Well-known
It's overpriced because similar and likely identical or superior products in the market do exactly the same thing for 50% of the cost, or, 1/10th of the cost even. It's Leica though, right - but like I mentioned later, it's missing what I consider to be the entire point of having a Leica, a rangefinder. Whether or not you consider that essential or part of the "Leica" philosophy is another question. If you want to compare feature sets, tell me why you think this is a sound investment instead of pretty much anything else on the market? For $4250, that is.
Also, if one is a Leica aficionado, they probably have a few M-mount lenses. Therefore, a fixed-lens M body seems counterproductive over an M240 or M9, if one wanted to get a digital M.
It's boring because it's already been done. What photographers want? I would guess that it's not this. This won't sell well compared to any DSLR on the market, and likely will sell less than any A7 camera, for instance. What photographers need? Well, depends on the photographer. See above. A fixed-lens compact at over $4k is, for all intents and purposes, a niche product.
It sounds like you've taken my indifference towards this camera personally. I'm sorry if so. You are free to throw your money at whatever camera you want, so have at it if you feel it is necessary to your photographic pursuits. Personally, I think it's a boring, overly expensive product. Perhaps the Leicaphiles have just finally gotten lazy and want AF and auto-everything (just buy a cheap DSLR for 1/10 the price!).
pvdhaar
Peter
Can't afford one, but have to admit that it looks beautifully designed..
ecksbocks
Member
I love it. But since it's digital, my love will fade after a month or so.
Also i prefer to NOT have super sharp lenses on digital bodies.
phatnev
Well-known
There's nothing on the market that compares for 10% of the price. There's only one other FF compact on the market. And it's a 35mm f2 with terrible battery life and poorly implemented fly by wire manual focus and no evf or ovf.
I'm with you that the RF is definitely an integral part of the Leica legacy, but legacy's come from the past, and we don't live in the past. AF on a premium Leica product is a huge step forward for them. They used to be a working photographer's camera, and now, they're merely a niche item for the rich and beautiful or the old and nostalgic. I'm assuming they'd like to change that.
As for a "sound investment" I don't think many people buy cameras as sound investments. Especially not digital ones. That would be most unwise. I think if someone shoots 28mm, wants full frame, a fast lens, AF, and great IQ in a small package that this is a great candidate for them seeing as it's the singular candidate. 28 is my favorite focal length. I'd love to own this camera. Especially if Leica comes out with a 50mm version to pair it with.
I'm a Leica shooter. I have a few lenses. But none of them are brand new ASPH lenses, most are 40+ years old and would not do well on an overly demanding 24 megapixel sensor. The closest lens to this 28mm f1.7 'lux is the $3900 Summicron f2, which still leaves me without a body. I'd be 10k in the hole if I wanted the M240(which I would seeing as the M9 sensors are defective).
I'm totally with you, the M6 is my favorite camera. I take it everywhere with me. My D750 is simply too big and too heavy. The M6 is phenomenal. But film is expensive. I'm going on a year long trip next summer, in maybe 2 or 3 months I'd shoot enough film to buy one of these guys, just in film + processing, not to mention logistics of getting the film out of the countries I'll be in and back to my country of residence. If it were feasible to do it all the time I would, but I can't. I'm not that rich. I sincerely wish I was.
I didn't take it personally but I'm disheartened that people are reacting poorly to Leica finally trying to change with the times. To get back on the horse so to speak. The Q is something to get excited about, and certainly not boring. It probably has a lot to do with the demographic that shoots Leicas these days, but as someone who sees the necessity of digital, and doesn't like the idea of $8,000 bodies, this gives me a lot of hope for one of photography's best camera makers.
bwcolor
Veteran
It seems to have Sony beat with the new EVF, but the A7rII has better optics in front of the EVF. Other than this, Sony's next entry into this market should move the fixed lens camera forward in a way that Leica can not. I wonder if the traditional rangefinder can keep up with 50Mpix sensors and fast glass. I doubt that it can. Perhaps, this camera represents Leica's future... EVF.
Corran
Well-known
Well I pretty much disagree with you in every way.
If you are so stuck on FF, that's your business, but there are plenty of options on the market that aren't but have the same FoV. Is a FF sensor worth the thousands of dollar extra expense? Anyway, here's the real deal: the reason there hasn't been any FF compacts on the market, is because the market doesn't want it. Most folks want interchangeable lenses. And 28mm is limiting.
Legacy - sorry but if Leica wants to get rid of their legacy, they lose their core reason for existing. Are you implying they should build mass-market cameras? Because this isn't one, and they won't. They are a niche item, and they will always be with their pricing. I'll eat my hat if this sells like hotcakes to the masses. But I doubt it. And why should they want to change their market? They know it, they cater to it. And I'm not old or nostalgic, for the record. If any other company made a true digital RF, preferably Nikon with a revival of the S-mount, I'd sell my (digital) Leica junk and never look back. Preferably with the D800 sensor...
Obviously I didn't write "sound investment" in terms of a stock portfolio. But this camera is a poor investment in cameras, IMO. If 28mm is your "favorite FL" then I can see why you have more immediate appeal towards it.
You don't NEED brand new ASPH lenses! Fun fact - I own all of 1 Leitz lens, and it's an old uncoated Elmar that came along for the ride with another purchase. The lenses I have from my Nikon/Contax rangefinders adapted to the M6/9 are just fine, great even, and the modern Voigtlanders are nothing to scoff at. For performance, Zeiss lenses now are pretty much as good or even edging out the Leica competition, for waaaay less. It's a non-issue, except for pixel-counters and those wanting to have 1% sharper photos than the next guy.
The M9 sensors aren't defective...sheesh. Some are, and are getting replaced. No problem with mine.
And I'm sorry but film is only as expensive as you make it. I develop everything myself, including color. Last year I bought 1000' of T-Max 100 for a couple hundred dollars from a photographer getting out of film (fresh, even). That's plenty of TMX for me for a while. I have a ton of color film that I've bought at close-out. I've made film very cheap for me. If you shoot willy-nilly and buy the most expensive film out there and send everything out to the most expensive lab, sure, it's expensive. Anyway, if you are going on a "year-long trip" apparently you are a lot richer than I. I actually have to work for a living.
You shouldn't be disheartened if people react poorly to a camera. All that means is your priorities and interests are apparently different. Leica doesn't make cameras for you, they make them for their market. Whether or not this appeals to their market? I don't know. Apparently it does for a lot of people on this thread. Which amazes me really. I would think the real Leica guys don't want this. But maybe the old nostalgic folks are getting lazy and don't want to bother with film anymore, or something. Whatever.
phatnev
Well-known
I never said they need to get rid of their core, but they need to adapt and broaden their horizons. Invite people into the fold who may have never even heard of Leica before, let alone spent thousands of dollars on a film camera. They will probably never stop producing M models, at least I hope they don't. But creating cameras like this can be a good thing for them. If this doesn't sell well I doubt you'll see any more FF compacts.
And you're absolutely 100% correct, I don't need a brand new ASPH lens. I love my Canon 35mm f2 LTM and my 50mm 1.5 Summarit. They're fantastic. But I doubt they'd do that well on a 24mp sensor. My point wasn't so much that I need those lenses, because very few people do. My point was moreso that I'm getting a brand new 28mm 1.7 ASPH Summilux AND a body for $4250. That's a bargain in the crazy world of Leica.
I do work for a living, thanks. I'm 27, single, and have no wife, no kids, no house, no car, nothing to tie me down. I teach abroad and live in a developing country where the cost of living is peanuts, so I'm able to save over 65% of my paycheck each month. Add to that traveling through India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran is much cheaper than traveling in the West, it's quite easy to spend a year on the go without spending much money at all. You can quite easily do 6 months in India for $6,000 USD.
I think what most people want is the D800/750/5d3 quality, in a much smaller package. This is pretty close. The A7 series obviously has the advantage due to massive lens compatibility and price though. That said I really hope the RX2 is announced soon with a 1.8 lens and a built in VF and better battery life.
And again with the "real" Leica guys bit. I hope that's still sarcasm
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
Corran
Well-known
Anyway, no I'm not being sarcastic. I don't understand why someone interested in the M series would want this. The Coolpix A will take basically the same photos. The Sony RX1 is close enough. The A7 with a Voigtlander 28mm will do the same and have more options. It's just pointless. IMO, of course, and I'm not going to change my tune, so that's my viewpoint.
Oh, regarding lenses - I think you are a bit naive about what will work, and work well on a 24mp sensor. My D800, with a 36mp sensor, even works wonderfully with vintage MF Nikkors that are 30-40 years old.
Oh, regarding lenses - I think you are a bit naive about what will work, and work well on a 24mp sensor. My D800, with a 36mp sensor, even works wonderfully with vintage MF Nikkors that are 30-40 years old.
mangamonster
Established
I also disagree with you in many of your points you continue to write about.
With that said, I'm proud to be the minority who disagree with you and wanting FF in a manageable footprint. Don't get me wrong, I love film, but there's a time and place to discuss that in different forums. Also, I'm not wanting more lenses and interchangeability. I could care less about systems. Bring out more boutique lenses, who cares. I know how I shoot, and all I need is an adapter and some of my old/reliable, high quality tank lenses in the 28 / 35 / 50 format. I have a stable of them. I shoot those primes in 95% of all my shots, unless I'm in the studio doing professional head shots. I'm not entirely sure you actually know what the demographic is. Leica must have done their homework before spending money into R&D and producing this camera, just like most other camera manufactures do, Sigma being the eccentric.
With that said, I'll make a wager that Fuji is working on a compact FF camera at this very moment which will probably cause fan boys heads to explode. It's going to happen.
Corran
Well-known
I don't understand, because what you say you want isn't the Q. What I wrote has nothing to do with "FF in a manageable footprint." That would be the Sony A7 already, no? And the Q, while it might be slightly thinner than the M, still has quite a massive lens on it. I see no advantages in size to it, compared to an M, in reality. Also, it sounds like you want interchangeable lenses with an adapter, just like I was saying most would want (not fixed lens).
Who knows what Fuji is doing - the rumors abound about a medium format camera. We'll see. There's something actually unique potentially.
Who knows what Fuji is doing - the rumors abound about a medium format camera. We'll see. There's something actually unique potentially.
Maximilian
Established
Not sure if I'm a "real Leica guy", but nonetheless I could absolutely care less if the Q (or any of my earlier M bodies) was made by Leica or any other brand, I'd still buy it for what it is, not because of the logo. I would assume I'm not alone with that.
The Q definitely is a niche camera, but I love that they made it because I am obviously one of the few that this is perfect for! I know 28mm is not the standard lens for most people, but honestly, I don't care, all I care about is that it's what I like!
I love RF focusing, but with my very limited use with this camera, I must say that manual focusing is an absolute breeze! And the transfer between manual and auto is very nice and the auto is very fast and accurate as well, which is a nice change of things for me. I've sold a number of cameras before (including the RX1) just because I never got comfortable focusing them.
On M bodies, the 28 is somewhat frustrating, because the frame lines are so far to the edges. I have an optical finder, but it's also a bit of a pain to focus through one window then have to change to another to compose. Also somewhat tiresome to not be able to frame precisely, cause the frame lines are obviously not that precise and distortion is not visible through the viewfinder. All that said, I have still used a 28mm lens as my main lens on M bodies for a decade now (I do own an old 50 and 21, that I never use). The images and the ease of use with the rest of the settings has been good enough to live with the awkwardness.
The EVF in the Q makes framing and focusing super easy though! It's just such a simple and fast camera to operate and the images are wonderful! Best of both worlds and something that I've never found in any other system before.
Corran
Well-known
If you like it, fine, go for it. I assume you would've liked it better if it didn't have a red dot and was $1,999?
Like I've said, for me, and I thought most Leica users, the whole reason for a Leica, and paying the premium, was RF focusing and an OVF. Really fantastic camera with OVFs, perfectly accurate framing, fast and easy AF and stellar MF too, have existed for years ([D]SLRs). Recently the mirrorless ones are here with EVFs for those wanting a smaller camera body. All with less cost and more capabilities.
Like I've said, for me, and I thought most Leica users, the whole reason for a Leica, and paying the premium, was RF focusing and an OVF. Really fantastic camera with OVFs, perfectly accurate framing, fast and easy AF and stellar MF too, have existed for years ([D]SLRs). Recently the mirrorless ones are here with EVFs for those wanting a smaller camera body. All with less cost and more capabilities.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
We will all be tired of this cam in 4 mos...and on to the next thing..
Nice stab at Sony Leica...not a bad cam...and it points to the future..
I predict..they will sell quite a few..but not be a big hit...just too limited..
Nice stab at Sony Leica...not a bad cam...and it points to the future..
I predict..they will sell quite a few..but not be a big hit...just too limited..
Maximilian
Established
Sure would! Would have liked it even better if it was a dollar 99!
You are right. I've had a number of those through the years as well. I keep selling them too. Honestly, I think all people who are interested in the Q, already know exactly what other cameras already exist on the market. But thanks though.