Question About Elmar Lenses That Stop Down To f18

[gb hill]

While out metering today the thought accrued to me that my elmar 50/3.5 stops down to f18 instead of f16 like most other lenses. Just wondering to those who use these lenses who meter or use Sunny 16 method...

Do you use f18 as your sunny 16 or do you open the aperture a bit? How do you meter these lenses when using a meter that uses the more common numbers...or is close good enough?

Reference to those reading who might not know #'s are 3.5. 4.5, 6.3, 9, 12.5, 18.

 

[sevo]

Apart from the first stop (at 2/3 stops down) that is all one third stop down from the modern series...

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I evade the issue and your question by using a meter of the same vintage but I don't really think it would matter much. Probably because of the film's latitude and the (?auto) corrections applied by the machine or lab. I have often wondered where my bracketed shots have gone...

Regards, David

 

[Luddite Frank]

Unlike earlier aperture systems (Waterhouse, Uniform Stops, etc.) the stops employed on mid-Century cameras do "fit-in" with our modern f-stop scale, in terms of actual lens opening, even if different numbers got picked to be the "stop".

f:18 on an older lens should fall about 1/2-way between f:16 and f:22 on a "modern" meter.

I have a couple "European stop" lenses and haven't really run into exposure problems using post WW-II meters... mostly I'm using Gossen Luna-Pro or Luna Six.

My 35mm Elmar has the same aperture scaling as mentioned in the first post, as do several of my earlier Elmar 90's and Hektor & Elmar 135's.

Lenses for large format cameras still stop-down to f:45, f:64, perhaps even f:128 ?

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I mentioned older meters as you/we also have to juggle with the shutter speeds and they weren't standardised either on a lot of cameras that went with the older Elmars and their rivals.

There were some very odd scales; my Contax II shutter speeds run as 2; 5; 10; 25; 50;125; 250; 500 and 1250 and its Sonnar runs f/2; f/2.8 to f/22...

The Leica II (contemporary with the Contax II) has shutter speeds going 20; 30; 40; 60; 100; 200; and 500 but the Summar on it goes f/2 then f/2.2; f/3.2 etc to f/12,5 - with apologies for the use of a full stop and comma in my typing but that mistake underlines another anarchism.

So all in all a complete muddle, and the non-digital meters jammed a lot on to the analogue dials to show the right answer; look at (say) the early Westons from the 40's.

Regards, David

 

[Roger Hicks]

With neg film, just use the next bigger aperture, e.g. 12,5 instead of 16, or 5,6 instead of 6,3. It'll give you 2/3 stop overexposure, but this won't matter with neg film.

Or use the next smallest aperture, e.g. 18 instead of 16 or 6,3 instead of 5.6. You'll get 1/3 stop underexposure, but this will almost certainly be offset by the shutter running slightly slow: very few shutters, especially in older cameras, run at their marked speeds, let alone fast.

The basic rule with neg films is always to err on the side of over-exposure, so use f/2 for f/2.2 or 1/50 for 1/60.

The basic rule with all photography is not to look for more precision than exists in the system. If the meter indicates 1/60 @ f/8, then you can use 1/50 @ f/9 (identical exposure) or 1/50 @ f/8 (1/3 stop over). For that matter even 1/50 at f/6.3 will only be a stop over (see previous para). That's assuming a dead accurate shutter, of course: see http://rogerandfrances.eu/photography/exercise-52316 for living with known faults.

Cheers,

R.

 

[BillBingham2]

Sounds like a custom job done specifically for David St. Hubbins.

B2 (;->

 

[FrankS]

Close enough. I just nudge the tab a bit to get to the regular f-stop would be.

 

[gb hill]

Unlike earlier aperture systems (Waterhouse, Uniform Stops, etc.) the stops employed on mid-Century cameras do "fit-in" with our modern f-stop scale, in terms of actual lens opening, even if different numbers got picked to be the "stop".

f:18 on an older lens should fall about 1/2-way between f:16 and f:22 on a "modern" meter.

I have a couple "European stop" lenses and haven't really run into exposure problems using post WW-II meters... mostly I'm using Gossen Luna-Pro or Luna Six.

My 35mm Elmar has the same aperture scaling as mentioned in the first post, as do several of my earlier Elmar 90's and Hektor & Elmar 135's.

Lenses for large format cameras still stop-down to f:45, f:64, perhaps even f:128 ?

Thank you. So this is a true f18 on the modern scale. I was wondering about this.

 

[gb hill]

With neg film, just use the next bigger aperture, e.g. 12,5 instead of 16, or 5,6 instead of 6,3. It'll give you 2/3 stop overexposure, but this won't matter with neg film.

Or use the next smallest aperture, e.g. 18 instead of 16 or 6,3 instead of 5.6. You'll get 1/3 stop underexposure, but this will almost certainly be offset by the shutter running slightly slow: very few shutters, especially in older cameras, run at their marked speeds, let alone fast.

The basic rule with neg films is always to err on the side of over-exposure, so use f/2 for f/2.2 or 1/50 for 1/60.

The basic rule with all photography is not to look for more precision than exists in the system. If the meter indicates 1/60 @ f/8, then you can use 1/50 @ f/9 (identical exposure) or 1/50 @ f/9 (1/3 stop over). For that matter even 1/50 at f/6.3 will only be a stop over (see previous para). That's assuming a dead accurate shutter, of course: see http://rogerandfrances.eu/photography/exercise-52316 for living with known faults.

Cheers,

R.

These were my thoughts but doesn't hurt to ask. Roger you most always explain things where the common man can understand. I applaud you kind sir.

 

[MikeMGB]

For myself, close enough is good enough, as Roger said above, I very much doubt the shutter speeds on my IIIa are accurate so I just pick the closest number to what my meter or Sunny 16 says.

 

[gb hill]

Close enough. I just nudge the tab a bit to get to the regular f-stop would be.

That's what I've been doing. I think I will shoot some at f18 to see if there is a noticeable difference. I'm currently shooting a roll of Arista EDU 100 in a Nicca 3-S a member gifted to me. Instead of 125 like the modern cameras had a speed of 100. Like Roger stated shutter speeds on these older cameras tend to run slower.

The shutter, when my friend tested it found the shutter capping. If my roll test that it is capping I will send this camera to Youxin Ye. From tripping the shutter at all speeds I see no evidence. The cloth on the curtains look new & there is a repair sticker inside the bottom plate so I'm hoping the camera suffers from being on a shelf too long but I don't really know. I do know this is a beautiful camera & YY will do a fabulous job.