newst
Well-known
I am seeking information from members of this board who are certainly more knowledgeable in matters Leica than I am.
I recently purchased an early Leica Elmar 3.5/50 (1933-1934) off eBay. The seller listed it as serial number 89077. While I was waiting for it to be delivered, I decided to look up the serial number online.
It turned out that I couldn’t find a match for 89077. Every list I checked began at 100,000. My logical conclusion was that the seller had mistyped the serial. This was reinforced by the listing identifying S/N 189077 as a 1933 production Elmar.
The lens was delivered today and one of the first things I checked was the serial number. To my surprise, the serial number engraved on the aperture ring is indeed 89077.
Thus my question to the group. Is this unusual, or did Leica have a habit of leaving the first digit of the serial number off the lens itself, at least until they had actually produced 100,000 lenses?
I would appreciate any insight you are willing to share. Thank you.
I recently purchased an early Leica Elmar 3.5/50 (1933-1934) off eBay. The seller listed it as serial number 89077. While I was waiting for it to be delivered, I decided to look up the serial number online.
It turned out that I couldn’t find a match for 89077. Every list I checked began at 100,000. My logical conclusion was that the seller had mistyped the serial. This was reinforced by the listing identifying S/N 189077 as a 1933 production Elmar.
The lens was delivered today and one of the first things I checked was the serial number. To my surprise, the serial number engraved on the aperture ring is indeed 89077.
Thus my question to the group. Is this unusual, or did Leica have a habit of leaving the first digit of the serial number off the lens itself, at least until they had actually produced 100,000 lenses?
I would appreciate any insight you are willing to share. Thank you.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
AFAIK the earliest numbers on the outside of the lenses appear in 1933 @ nr.156001. Earlier lenses are numbered on the inside or not at all.
Get a copy of G.Rogliatti Leica and Leicaflex lenses (1978) or E. Puts Leica Pocketbook (1980) (first editions) if you are interested in Leica lens numbers.
Lenses with lower numbers engraved are overhauled or updated AFAIK.
Erik.
Get a copy of G.Rogliatti Leica and Leicaflex lenses (1978) or E. Puts Leica Pocketbook (1980) (first editions) if you are interested in Leica lens numbers.
Lenses with lower numbers engraved are overhauled or updated AFAIK.
Erik.
newst
Well-known
Thank you. The serial number that is on the aperture control is as finely engraved as on any other Leica lens I have seen. It may just have been serviced by Leica at some point. Still, 189077 is after the 156001 that you have identified, so why no 1 on the ring?
james.liam
Well-known
Erik van Straten
Veteran
A different number on the lens than the serial number may be an indication (sort of a code) for the "true" focal length rather than the engraved one on the name ring.
Dralowid
Michael
Summilux.net records an Elmar 99811 as being 1926 which one has to assume was numbered post production, anyway it makes little sense in the normal scheme of things.
Nitroplait
Well-known
Is "(1933-1934)" the seller's listing or something you have concluded? If the date range comes from the seller's listing, you may ask them which source they used for dating.
A photo may help as there may be other indicators of age. Is it nickel? Does it have the regular length of an extended Elmar or is it a little shorter (often the case when old model IA elmar's were converted to the standardised mount). The Elmar's that were rebuild don't always align well with the known lists.
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Dralowid
Michael
My understanding is that converted lenses have no serial numbers.
89077 corresponds to a II body made in 1932. 189077 on a lens would make it 1933. 189077 on a body much later indeed a IIIa from 1936
If you agree with the theory that lens numbers in the early '30s tracked approximately 100,000 ahead of body numbers then your thoughts about a missing '1' might lead somewhere.
I think such a theory needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, I have seen several Elmars where that serial number has been very poorly stamped by Leitz.
89077 corresponds to a II body made in 1932. 189077 on a lens would make it 1933. 189077 on a body much later indeed a IIIa from 1936
If you agree with the theory that lens numbers in the early '30s tracked approximately 100,000 ahead of body numbers then your thoughts about a missing '1' might lead somewhere.
I think such a theory needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, I have seen several Elmars where that serial number has been very poorly stamped by Leitz.
newst
Well-known
To be honest the references I found all called out 1933. I only added 1934 because that was the date in the seller's listing.
https://reddotcamera.net/leica-lenses/serial-number/
| 187001 | 190000 | Elmar | 3.5 | 50 | 1933 | 3000 |
| 1933 | 156 001 - 195 000 | 39 384 |
https://www.overgaard.dk/leica-serial-numbers-and-second-hand-guide-by-overgaard.html
| 156 001 | 195 000 | 1933 |
newst
Well-known
That would be amazing. I can't be that lucky. As there is a small amount of internal haze I will eventually be sending it to Youxin Ye for a CLA and will ask his opinion.
Nitroplait
Well-known
That is the general assumption, but it is also a period where almost all rules has been proven to have exceptions.
And the very first batch of Leica II's that is.
And batch numbers assigned just before the very first batch of the Standard - and before the III was introduced.
That must have been a time of significant transitions and possible deviations from what we think were the rules. It doesn't make things easier that Leica routinely reworked on lenses.
If we entertain the idea that for some reason the camera and lens had the same SN from 1932, it would have been a nickel lens with an infinity stop at 11 o'clock (unless it was later modified for use on Leica III).
As noted, a photo of the lens would help a lot; what is the finish, where is infinity stop.
On the photo below: left is a nickel Elmar 5cm/3.5 that was once mounted on a Leica IA from 1929. It was rehoused after 1934 (because it has 7 o'clock infinity stop) but probably not later than 1935 because of the shape of the f on the front plate. It does not have a serial number engraved outside but the number of the camera it came from on the inside if I remember correctl .
The other lens is a standard coated Elmar 5cm/3.5 from 1954. As can be seen, the housing is longer that the older nickel one (both are fully extended and set to infinity).
newst
Well-known
Thanks. My original, and current, working theory is that the 1 was just not stamped into the ring. The remaining numbers, although incredibly small, are perfectly formed.
Nitroplait
Well-known
It wouldn't be the very first year of production as the elmar 5cm was standard on most of the Leica IAs, but first year of lenses with serial numbers perhaps.
newst
Well-known
That is the general assumption, but it is also a period where almost all rules has been proven to have exceptions.
And the very first batch of Leica II's that is.
And batch numbers assigned just before the very first batch of the Standard - and before the III was introduced.
That must have been a time of significant transitions and possible deviations from what we think were the rules. It doesn't make things easier that Leica routinely reworked on lenses.
If we entertain the idea that for some reason the camera and lens had the same SN from 1932, it would have been a nickel lens with an infinity stop at 11 o'clock (unless it was later modified for use on Leica III).
As noted, a photo of the lens would help a lot; what is the finish, where is infinity stop.
Again, thanks for helping. The mail arrived Saturday just as I was heading out to visit a friend. By the time I got back home it was getting late, and I really thought this was something people who knew Leica would just say "Hey newb, everyone knows that..."
So now, some pictures.
1933 Elmar 89077 (7) by newst54, on Flickr
1933 Elmar 89077 (6) by newst54, on Flickr
1933 Elmar 89077 (5) by newst54, on Flickr
1933 Elmar 89077 (4) by newst54, on Flickr
1933 Elmar 89077 (3) by newst54, on Flickr
1933 Elmar 89077 (2) by newst54, on Flickr
1933 Elmar 89077 (1) by newst54, on Flickr
Jul
Newbie
There are extra markings on the distance scale such as those found on some later samples at some time between 1938 and 1941.
newst
Well-known
Nitroplait
Well-known
Very nice looking lens. I'm sure you will have a lot of joy from that.
I think we can out-rule it is from 1930. It would have been 11 o'clock infinity stop and nickel. To my eyes it looks like chrome. If it was adapted later to be compatible with the Leica III (infinity stop at 7 o'clock) it would probably have retained nickel finish - unless it was modified much later.
I just notice on Red Dot Cameras list that the the serial number 189077 would fall in the interval 187001-190000 which were assigned specifically for Elmar 50/3.5 in 1933. So the theory of a missing 1 from the engraving is a possibility.
I guess someone with a 1933 lens could compare engraving details to see if it matches.
I think we can out-rule it is from 1930. It would have been 11 o'clock infinity stop and nickel. To my eyes it looks like chrome. If it was adapted later to be compatible with the Leica III (infinity stop at 7 o'clock) it would probably have retained nickel finish - unless it was modified much later.
I just notice on Red Dot Cameras list that the the serial number 189077 would fall in the interval 187001-190000 which were assigned specifically for Elmar 50/3.5 in 1933. So the theory of a missing 1 from the engraving is a possibility.
I guess someone with a 1933 lens could compare engraving details to see if it matches.
newst
Well-known
Yes, that's about where I am at right now. Thanks.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
Johngwill
Established
I would post the information and photo's on the Leica Forum, Collectors & Historica area ( https://www.l-camera-forum.com/forum/35-leica-collectors-historica/ ). They have many very knowledgeable members that specialize in the early Leica cameras and lenses.