Questions....I have questions! (FED 1)

[DH73]

Hello,
I'm sorry to be a pain, but I have a few questions relating to my 1955 FED 1(g). I've had the camera since earlier this year, but some things are puzzling me.

Allow me to introduce my FED, complete with real pre-war, uncoated Elmar 5cm lens (obtained separately):



After some initial problems with loading, caused by a damaged lip on the pressure plate (thanks, previous owner), I loaded a test roll of FP4 and went to shoot random shots.

After developing the film, I notice that the shots are not quite central in the negative, and that the top edge is not straight:



I have also noticed that the shutter is 'banding', although not as badly as my blue FED 2:



Can anyone on here, based on the evidence provided above, offer any advice on what could be the cause of these problems?
Would a thorough clean, lube and adjust from my friendly local camera repairer (www.skearsphoto.com) sort the banding issue, or is it a case of "they all do that, sir"?
Was the odd positioning of the images on the negatives be due to incorrect loading?

I love this camera to bits, but I am reluctant to keep spending out on a camera which may never be any good. I've seen some Leica III cameras which I could afford if I sold off some other gear on eBay, however, at the back of my mind is the thought that any Leica II or III is likely to have 'issues', and at worst need new shutter curtains and a service if it is to be used regularly.

I would appreciate the thoughts of the members here. I leave you all with a shot I took on the above mentioned FED/ Leitz combo:

You're nicked! by David Henderson, on Flickr

Thank you 🙂

 

[davidnewtonguitars]

I think the film is not loaded correctly, the reason is baffling though, to be so far out of alignment on the whole roll. Could the damaged lip be catching the edge of the film and pushing it up, or down, as it passes the gate?

 

[Scrambler]

I can't speak directly re the FSU bottom loaders, but Leicas up to the Ms were all designed for slightly longer film canisters than standard (the Leicas were designed before the standard, and the length for a broadly compatible was limited by the Contax using shorter ones).

FSU advance spools are obviously designed for the camera and I would expect them to be correctly seated. But the film canister can sit low and still have the camera shut properly. FWIW I use FSU spools in my Leica bottom loaders.

I would try pushing the next film in deeper, and then consider a small spacer to fit underneath. Something that ideally won't wander!

 

[farlymac]

The framing issue is definitely a product of the commercial, mass produced film canister not being the same size as the original FED one. A spacer inserted on the rewind shaft usually corrects that.

Banding is caused by uneven tension on the shutter curtains, and or drag resulting from lubrication issues.

Both things can be sorted out by any competent camera repair shop.

PF

 

[Sid836]

When loading the film:
1. Make a long cut for the leader like this
2. Attach the film leader to the take up spool and make sure the edge of the film sits well on the edge of the take up spool when wrapping it around it.
3. Put the film in the camera, remove the lens and push the takeup spool and the film canister all the way in.
4. Advance the film once, set the shutter to B (or Z) and remove the lens.
5. Press and hold the shutter button and look through the front of the camera. If you see the sprocket holes of the film, then either the film has not been loaded correctly, or the takeup spool has not been seated well into the camera, or the film canister has not been seated correctly and it needs to go further in.

A spacer insert might help, but first check to see that with both film canister and takeup spool properly inserted there are no sprocket holes seen through the film gate.

 

[Scrambler]

When loading the film:
1. Make a long cut for the leader like this
2. Attach the film leader to the take up spool and make sure the edge of the film sits well on the edge of the take up spool when wrapping it around it.
3. Put the film in the camera, remove the lens and push the takeup spool and the film canister all the way in.
4. Advance the film once, set the shutter to B (or Z) and remove the lens.
5. Press and hold the shutter button and look through the front of the camera. If you see the sprocket holes of the film, then either the film has not been loaded correctly, or the takeup spool has not been seated well into the camera, or the film canister has not been seated correctly and it needs to go further in.

A spacer insert might help, but first check to see that with both film canister and takeup spool properly inserted there are no sprocket holes seen through the film gate.

Oh come on...

The FACTORY instructions, and all the aftermarket advice from the 30's to the 50's, is - cut a long leader (10 sprockets from memory, but maybe its 12), attach the takeup spool and insert.

All the online stuff about removing lenses or inserting cards is hocum PROVIDED YOU HAVE A CORRECT LEADER.

For the leader to work it must not have wrinkles - so the only sure and fast way to load a modern film is to cut the leader so it ENDS at the wrinkles imparted by having only a short leader out of the canister.

That said, 95% of the time you can load nearly anything. I tend to cut NO LEADER AT ALL on home-loaded canisters. This takes time and wriggling to insert, but is doable.

Short (commercial film) leaders, with wrinkles where it sat at the canister, are the worst.

You CANNOT close the bottom if the film does not slip over the sprockets. But that isn't the issue here - the issue is that the canister side (opposite the sprockets) is sitting low/ nearer the opening. This is not sorted with removing lenses, fiddling with open shutters etc.

So while I agree very firmly with making sure the leader is cut correctly I would say - make sure the canister is firmly pressed with no gap. You don't need to remove lenses etc. Just push the canister - if it goes in and then pops back out it isn't right. If it's already pushed all the way in, put the lid on and take photos.

 

[ForestCap]

@DH73

When you newly load a roll of film, shoot the camera at B speed without lens, then you can observe from the front to see if the film is lying nicely inside there, a.k.a you should not see any of the holes along the film (what's the correct term for the holes?), you can even adjust the film by using a finger to rub the film surface to move it up and down.

You can use a dummy roll of film to test if the film stays nicely after your adjustment.

I had a Zorki 1 had this problem but not as severe as yours. I just do the adjustment on frame 0 then it stays nicely.

 

[Sid836]

Oh come on...

The FACTORY instructions, and all the aftermarket advice from the 30's to the 50's, is - cut a long leader (10 sprockets from memory, but maybe its 12), attach the takeup spool and insert.

All the online stuff about removing lenses or inserting cards is hocum PROVIDED YOU HAVE A CORRECT LEADER.

For the leader to work it must not have wrinkles - so the only sure and fast way to load a modern film is to cut the leader so it ENDS at the wrinkles imparted by having only a short leader out of the canister.

That said, 95% of the time you can load nearly anything. I tend to cut NO LEADER AT ALL on home-loaded canisters. This takes time and wriggling to insert, but is doable.

Short (commercial film) leaders, with wrinkles where it sat at the canister, are the worst.

You CANNOT close the bottom if the film does not slip over the sprockets. But that isn't the issue here - the issue is that the canister side (opposite the sprockets) is sitting low/ nearer the opening. This is not sorted with removing lenses, fiddling with open shutters etc.

So while I agree very firmly with making sure the leader is cut correctly I would say - make sure the canister is firmly pressed with no gap. You don't need to remove lenses etc. Just push the canister - if it goes in and then pops back out it isn't right. If it's already pushed all the way in, put the lid on and take photos.

Nothing said about inserting a card in there! I said remove the lens to see the film is correctly in place and no sprocket holes are visible through the gate. This can save you a lot, especially if you are using a fed or a zorki for first time.
After a couple of rolls you will get the flow of it every single time, providing there are no other issues with the camera.
Oh, and you can close it with the film incorrectly fitted, and then all things can happen, from a jam, to a tear on the film, or just holes in your pictures like this.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

The FED is based - as we say - on the Leica and the Leica used a special cassette when it first appeared as no one made them then. Later on Kodak produced a 35mm camera and standardised the cassette but they - the Leitz and Kodak versions - are a slightly different size.

This groups shows a few versions of them all, except for the FED one.

And here are the original Leitz and the modern side by side with the film running from one to the other to show where the off-set is and - I hope - suggest what needs to be done to centralise it.

In reality, most of us use one spacer...

I hope this helps, the FED is a pleasant camera to use and has a few advantages over the original, like the tinted VF and RF, take up spool, price, etc.

Regards, David

PS Nice to see Northampton in the frame, that part of Kettering Road is interesting but will it last? ...

 

[wolves3012]

As everyone has suggested, it's the size of the film cassette causing the film to "sag" across the frame. I have a FED 1g, same year as that and it does the same. To cure it I cut a spacer out of some plastic foam - just a thick washer. Load the film, slip the spacer over the cassette bottom and re-fit the camera bottom - solves the problem!

 

[Sid836]

Hmm! Perhaps this is why on 6 out of the 10 Feds I have bought had their bottom plate knocked inwards on the side of the film canister.

 

[Scrambler]

Nothing said about inserting a card in there! I said remove the lens to see the film is correctly in place and no sprocket holes are visible through the gate. This can save you a lot, especially if you are using a fed or a zorki for first time.
After a couple of rolls you will get the flow of it every single time, providing there are no other issues with the camera.
Oh, and you can close it with the film incorrectly fitted, and then all things can happen, from a jam, to a tear on the film, or just holes in your pictures like this.

Not you commenting on cards. That is others.

Sorry if I misunderstood your advice as cure rather than diagnosis.

I still say you can tell enough simply pushing on the film canister. If it is not adequately seated you will feel it move in and it will spring back out if the sprockets are not seated.

 

[DH73]

Thank you for the excellent replies. I can assure you all that I do cut a Barnack type film leader. A very kind and talented friend made me a template, based on plans he found online (with some modifications). I have taken some quick snaps to show how it works, a different route to cut the film like a Leitz ABLON template:



The points (and photos) about the film cannister size are something I had never considered before. I'm going to cut a spacer to raise the film to compensate.

My plan is now to get a proper clean and service done on the shutter mechanism. I really do like this camera, so I want to be able to use it properly.

Once again, thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

David

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Talking of shutters; have you discovered in your research that the shutter speed dial must not be moved between the "Z" and the "500"? It's in the instruction books for the FED and Zorki but as they are in Russian no one reads them...

Anyway, it's on page 6 "Между „Z“ - 500 диск поворачивать нельзя" of the FED one and seems it applies to the Zorki 6 as well. Taking the FED as the start and the Zorki 6 as the end, I guess it applies to all the models in between.

There's two oddities here; there's no letter "Z" in the Cyrillic alphabet* and so I guess they copied that from the Leica direct. Secondly, everyone warns about setting the shutter speeds after cocking the shutter but ignores the bit about Z-500.

Regards, David

* Their version of "Z" is "З" which we all know from the front of the Zorki.

 

[citizen99]

The take-up spool dimensions can vary, according to what model they were intended to match. Pointers to my experience are given here:-
Take-up spools: FED/ZORKI/whatever 1 by John Hancock, on Flickr

Take-up spools: FED/ZORKI/whatever 2 by John Hancock, on Flickr

FED-1F baseplate-shimming by John Hancock, on Flickr

I'm not saying that the cassette size may not be the problem, just that this is another factor to consider.

 

[DH73]

Hi,

Talking of shutters; have you discovered in your research that the shutter speed dial must not be moved between the "Z" and the "500"? It's in the instruction books for the FED and Zorki but as they are in Russian no one reads them...

Anyway, it's on page 6 "Между „Z“ - 500 диск поворачивать нельзя" of the FED one and seems it applies to the Zorki 6 as well. Taking the FED as the start and the Zorki 6 as the end, I guess it applies to all the models in between.

There's two oddities here; there's no letter "Z" in the Cyrillic alphabet* and so I guess they copied that from the Leica direct. Secondly, everyone warns about setting the shutter speeds after cocking the shutter but ignores the bit about Z-500.

Regards, David

* Their version of "Z" is "З" which we all know from the front of the Zorki.

I'd never heard that before, but I have never (that I know of) gone from Z (zeit I assume) to 500 directly, or passed go, or collected £200. I also notice that you can feel resistance as you turn the dial below 50th, I assume there is a slow speed escapement to engage.

@citizen99 - Thank you for this excellent information, which ties in with my own research completely. I loaded a 'dead' roll of poundland film into my FED labyrinth canister, and that sits nicely in the gate, whereas standard Kodak or Ilford 135 type canisters allow the film to drop at the take up spool end. I took the camera into Skears Photo in Northampton today. I showed their ace camera fixer, Steve Skears, the ill-aligned film. He is going to carry out a full stripdown, clean and service of the shutter and rf, he will also 'pack' the spindle on the base plate so that the film sits straight. After this, I should be left with a very usable camera. Last year, I had Skears service my Oly 35RC, and that is also a nice camera now.

Some cameras just feel right in your hands, and some don't. The FED is a delight to use in my opinion. Maybe because my first 'proper' camera in 1981 was a Kiev 4a, bought for me when I was 8 years old. I still have that camera, and find using a RF camera easy enough. The above reasoning led me to sell the two Nikons I owned, an F3 and an FE. They just didn't 'do it' for me. As a railway photographer, I love the looks I get when using my Soviet cams or Mamiya C220. Disdain usually!🙄

 

[wolves3012]

I'd never heard that before, but I have never (that I know of) gone from Z (zeit I assume) to 500 directly, or passed go, or collected £200. I also notice that you can feel resistance as you turn the dial below 50th, I assume there is a slow speed escapement to engage.

No slow-speed escapement on a FED 1 - not until FED 3 did they fit such a gizmo. It shouldn't be any harder to go anywhere between 1/500th and Z, or back. Not directly between Z and 1/500th (or vice versa) though, that's the forbidden zone and bad things might happen. I say might because you can break an internal pin that prevents the step but in honesty, I think it would require force beyond the point where alarm bells should be ringing.

There's no real mechanical reason for the pin and Leicas don't have it (or so I believe and my IIIC doesn't), so they can go round and round if you're so minded. The pin is needed for later models with slow-speed escapements though.

 

[reagan]

DH73, you're on the road to good shooting. I'm glad b/c that's a really nice looking piece of equipment and once tweeked into good order should serve you well for years to come. Let us know how it turns out.

"There's no letter "Z" in the Cyrillic alphabet* ...

Correct you are, ... and so, after all these years, it just occurred to me,

...

"There's no Z in Zorki." My new quote of the week.

Well played, men. Good night, Irene. My work here is done. #tipofthehat

 

[DH73]

DH73, you're on the road to good shooting. I'm glad b/c that's a really nice looking piece of equipment and once tweeked into good order should serve you well for years to come. Let us know how it turns out.

Oh, I will. I'm looking forward to getting it back in a few weeks time. Skears do a fantastic job, and have been servicing my cameras since 1990. They were able to keep my worn out 1963 Honeywell-Pentax H3V on life support until it finally died in 1996.

 

[Scrambler]

There's no real mechanical reason for the pin and Leicas don't have it (or so I believe and my IIIC doesn't)

But the IIIa does have it. You can't shortcut high to low.