Leica LTM Questions re restoring old black paint Leicas

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
Dez

Dez

Bodger Extraordinaire
Local time
5:15 AM
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
1,537
I recently bought a nice old Leica A-to-D conversion. From the serial number, the original Leica A was made in 1930. It is mechanically very good, has no significant dings, and the RF is nice and bright, but there is a great deal of wear in the black paint to the point where it does not look "patina-ed"; it just looks worn. At one point someone did a truly horrible job of touching up the brassing; the overlay paint came right off while I was cleaning the camera body. So now I have removed all the repaint, and am down to the original paint, which was completely unaffected by the cleaning.

I'm no purist- otherwise I probably would not have bought a factory updated camera, right? And as an impurist, I am having thoughts of redoing the paint. I may be a bodger, but I am a CAREFUL bodger, and I do a fair bit of old camera restoration, so just slapping a layer on is not on the program. I have a few questions to direct at the many people on the list who are undoubtedly better at this than I am.

1. What paint was originally used? Was it an enamel or a lacquer, or Japanning?

2. What is the stuff that Leitz used to fill the engravings? It appears to be some sort of silvery metal, and is still there in the engravings on my camera, including the updated top plate, although it has tarnished. How on earth did they do that?

3. How do you keep the new paint from covering up this mystery metal? There seems to be something very strange about it, because there appears to be a very narrow strip of unpainted brass around the edges of the engravings on the RF housing, as if the paint were being repelled by the metal. Or more likely that is some sort of masking process (wax, maybe?). Although the RF housing has its original paint, that brass edging is quite noticeable, and the engravings on the rest of the camera with the original Leica finish show no brass.

4. And here's the obvious question which will always polarize collectors, that of conservation vs restoration. Should I keep it original and tatty, or modified and pretty?

Any information or advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Dez
 
Well I am in the process of restoring a very ugly Leica I of the same year. Through the years someone had painted the whole camera, dials and all, silver and then black. Truly ugly! All it really needs internally is one curtain and a CLA and it will function well.
Anyway, I have striped the paint completely after disassembling the camera. The engravings are filled with metal i think? It's not paint. It's actually raised. I believe they were painted with a very thin coat of enamel and then most likely wet sanded exposing the raised portions (serial# ect.) Later on some cameras have the paint come off at these exposed areas. I also believe at least on my Leica I the surface of the brass was etched causing a brownish oxidation in which the enamel was applied without any sort of primer. I may be way off but, I don't think I am. I am planing on posting before and after pictures when it's done sometime this summer.
I will be curious to hear what others have to say on this. These are my observations so I thought I would share. I will say I do think the raised potions are not brass or at least not the same alloy as the rest of top and bottom plate.
 
Last edited:
I'm from the 'do nothing' school but...

You might consider working on the baseplate, top plate, r/f bezels and leave the vf/r/f housing alone. This means that you have much less Woods Metal to worry about and you retain some patina.

Alternatively you can chemically blacken exposed brass which is not permanent and can sometimes make a camera look much less ugly for a lot less effort and the engraving remains intact.

I see someone's found the Woods Metal thread, the process is scary.

Michael
 
Dralowid said:
I'm from the 'do nothing' school but...

You might consider working on the baseplate, top plate, r/f bezels and leave the vf/r/f housing alone. This means that you have much less Woods Metal to worry about and you retain some patina.

Alternatively you can chemically blacken exposed brass which is not permanent and can sometimes make a camera look much less ugly for a lot less effort and the engraving remains intact.

I see someone's found the Woods Metal thread, the process is scary.

Michael
Click to expand...

So, if you were to guess, do you think the camera was painted, engraved and, then filled with (woods metal or the like) ? I don't see any other way.:confused:

Also, I see where you are coming from on refinishing but I think there are candidates for refinishing. They might be few but, they exist as in my case. You'll see when I'm done:)
 
Last edited:
Yep, it`s filled with that woodsmetal.....I don't know anything about the process, except I think it was done BEFORE? the cameras were painted, I could be wrong though, tech stuff is not my strong points with Leica, it`s for me more about the History/

I think the other issue you will have is getting the paint also just right, the laquer's they used 70 years ago are all gone now and also illegal to use/work with, they were very dangerous/flumes etc.

But when they were baked the results are like black porcelain, the early Leica paintjobs are beautiful :D

I wish you very much luck with your restoration, I am also still trying to get the correct paint for the WW2 era Leica IIIC K Grey's, painting the body is a major project, no one I know or any project I've ever seen has reproduced the RLM 75 Grey paint that was used on these cameras.

The repainting of the body shell vulcanite is what I'm concerned with myself ~ the paints just were so different 60+ years ago, finding a match can be a challenge.

Tom
 
Last edited:
rlouzan said:
Hi Tom,

Did you try asking Malcolm Taylor?

Regards,
Robert
Click to expand...

Hmm yes he's a real expert but hard to contact over the net someone told me I had to call him at best???? Don't know, does anyone have contact to him or an email address????

Tom
 
Malcolm Taylor, Upper Lye Farm, Aymestrey, Leominster, Herefordshire HR6 9SZ
Tel: 01568 770542
Email: malcolmtaylor000@btconnect.com

He restore the original UR Leica!

LeicaTom said:
Hmm yes he's a real expert but hard to contact over the net someone told me I had to call him at best???? Don't know, does anyone have contact to him or an email address????

Tom
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Nitrocellulose lacquer will dissolve in nail polish remover(acetone), so that's a good test, you just dab a tiny bit on with a toothpick in a hidden spot and either it turns soft or it doesn't. Nitrocellulose lacquer is still used to finish furniture and high end musical instruments, so it is available. It is NOT baked. The finish is achieved by spraying multiple thin layers, allowing to cure for as long as possible(like a month), then sanding and buffing.

P.S. I'm also in the "leave it as is" camp, but if you do try to repaint it, I would practice on a cheaper camera first.
Any chance we could see a picture of it in it's present state?
 
Last edited:
stripping away the original black paint of a leica also strips away most of its value.

my rec: buy a chrome leica to repaint.
 
I believe (note choice of word) that the item was painted, then engraved and then infilled with Woods metal (bizmuth or whatever). The metal's melting point is very low and there is a point at which it can be used without destroying the paint.

Wouldn't like to try.

Some specialists, like Peter at CRR can give the infill an 'uplift' and generally improve it's appearance by heating it up. In other words almost re-melting the old infill in place.

Wouldn't like to try this either.

But despite the risks involved, I have seen the results and they are a significant improvement.

If one could get one's hands on a broken rangefinder or a PLOOT or other low value accessory that has the same process it would be a good item on which to experiment.

Someone trained in traditionl jewellery crafts would be able to help.

Michael
 
I was just reading about Japan Black on Wikipedia. It was the industrial lacquer in use before nitrocellulose was introduced in the 1920s. It is baked on at 400 degrees F.

It's also called "Black Varnish" or "Brunswick Black", it used asphalt as a base. It is very durable. Probably much harder to find than nitro, if it's available at all.
 
Last edited:
repaint

repaint

it is my understanding that for the early black cameras , the part was first painted black then engraved with the logo and number . then the woodsmetal was used to fill the engraveing . the woodsmetal is a low temperature application that does not affect the black paint and will only stick to bare brass . that is why it is applied post painting to a freshly engraved surface .

it is raised slightly above the black paint surface when original as it beads up from surface tension . there is no way to duplicate this process .
the iiic k gray were not done in this manner only the prewar black paint items .

i now forget where this information originated , believe it was from a camera restorer i spoke with some time ago .
this is the same as the process posted my micheal in the uk a day ago - did not see his post untill i had posted this reply .
 
Last edited:
Enasniearth,

I am uncertain about the infill on the IIIcK cameras but agree that it is not Woods Metal (bizmuth,bizmut etc). From what I've seen (I haven't got one but have looked closely at a couple) it appears to be a white paint infill that tends to go slightly off colour or greeny/creamy from being in contact with the engraved brass. This can also happen on the postwar black conversions. The paint is rarely white anymore and is very hard to match.

I'm sure the IIIcK experts will comment.

I also need to take a look at some very late prewar black cameras, black/chrome etc...if my memory serves some of these had paint infill rather than Woods Metal

Michael
 
Dralowid said:
Enasniearth,

From what I've seen (I haven't got one but have looked closely at a couple) it appears to be a white paint infill that tends to go slightly off colour or greeny/creamy from being in contact with the engraved brass. This can also happen on the postwar black conversions. The paint is rarely white anymore and is very hard to match.
I also need to take a look at some very late prewar black cameras, black/chrome etc...if my memory serves some of these had paint infill rather than Woods Metal
Click to expand...

I think a lot of the confusion occured because there are two ways of marking the cameras and lenses. These two ways are engraving and stamping.

I think the IIIc-k cameras were first painted, then engraved and finally the engraving was filled with white paint, most probably lead-white in linseed oil. The lead chemically reacts with the brass, causing a change in color: brown, green or yellow. The linseed oil itself also caused yellowing.

The later IIIc cameras had their logo stamped in, just as the IIIf, M3, M2 and IIIg cameras. Only their numbers were engraved. Because the stamping the filling with white paint - in case of black paint cameras - was done after the black painting-process was finished. Therefore the white paint could not chemically react with the brass and stayed relatively clean.

To match the change of the white color simply mix your white paint with artists oil paints "oxide yellow", "oxide brown", "oxide red" etc. from artists paint suppliers.

Erik.
 
Indeed white lead yellows when exposed to...darkness. It is photosensitive in reverse, it returns to white when exposed to sunlight. Probably the same reason glass made with heavy metals turns clear when exposed to sunlight. But any kind of white paint can yellow, whether it's titanium, zinc or lead, due to aging of the binder.
 
Wood's Metal and Black Leicas

Wood's Metal and Black Leicas

A very nice gent named Ken Schultz at Hi-tech Alloy Products http://www.hitechalloys.com/hitechalloys_002.htm
is sending me a Wood's metal sample to experiment with in trying to restore an old black Leica. He confirmed that the metal would indeed bond with brass, but that any oil or other contamination on the surface would prevent it from sticking.

So it really looks like the original process of painting then engraving may make a repaint impossible, but I am very much open to suggestions.

Cheers,
Dez
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom