mao
Member
I recently found this forum and I really appreciate the knowledge and friendly approach found here.
I am considering a Bessa R3 (A or M) with the Nokton 40 mm.
Shutter sound is important! Less i better, of course.
AE is nice but not a must. After all I´ve spent a lot of time with Nikon FM2, Olympus OM1 and Hasselblad 500.
And I like the R3M black paint better than the R3A.
While reading the info at cameraquest.com I found this:
"Voigtlander Bessa R2M / R3M Specs:
This Shutter is the quietest of the Cosina Voigtlander Bessas, roughly the same as the Leica M8"
and this:
"Voigtlander Bessa R2A R3A Specs:
This Shutter is noticeably quieter than the mechanical shuttered R2, but not as quiet as a Leica M camera."
Does the " mechanical shuttered R2" refer to the older R2 or the mechanical shuttered R2M/R3M as well?
To put it short: Which is the quietest of the Bessas?
Another thing to consider is reliability and accuracy. Are there any differencies in this matter between the two?
I don´t mind carrying spare batteries with me.
I am considering a Bessa R3 (A or M) with the Nokton 40 mm.
Shutter sound is important! Less i better, of course.
AE is nice but not a must. After all I´ve spent a lot of time with Nikon FM2, Olympus OM1 and Hasselblad 500.
And I like the R3M black paint better than the R3A.
While reading the info at cameraquest.com I found this:
"Voigtlander Bessa R2M / R3M Specs:
This Shutter is the quietest of the Cosina Voigtlander Bessas, roughly the same as the Leica M8"
and this:
"Voigtlander Bessa R2A R3A Specs:
This Shutter is noticeably quieter than the mechanical shuttered R2, but not as quiet as a Leica M camera."
Does the " mechanical shuttered R2" refer to the older R2 or the mechanical shuttered R2M/R3M as well?
To put it short: Which is the quietest of the Bessas?
Another thing to consider is reliability and accuracy. Are there any differencies in this matter between the two?
I don´t mind carrying spare batteries with me.
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bob338
Well-known
i don't think anyone will tell you that an r2/r3/etc shutter is quiet...
bob
bob
laptoprob
back to basics
If you are really looking for the quietest of rf cameras, look for the leaf shutters. Fixed lens cameras, yes, but very quiet.
Leica screw- and M-cameras are pretty quiet, depending on condition, lots quieter than Bessa metal shutters. But nowhere near leaf shutters.
Leica screw- and M-cameras are pretty quiet, depending on condition, lots quieter than Bessa metal shutters. But nowhere near leaf shutters.
ZeissFan
Veteran
I was thinking the same thing. Cameras with leaf shutters are usually quieter than their focal-plane shutter counterparts.
One of the quietest rangefinders is the Retina IIIS.
One of the quietest rangefinders is the Retina IIIS.
oscroft
Veteran
I have an R4A and, as far as I know, the shutter is the same as the R3A. And compared to my Leica shutters (M6 and M2) it isn't quiet. (Though it is quiet compared to an SLR shutter/mirror).
The R2 is not a R2M or R2A. They are all different cameras.
The mechanical R2M and R3M are the quietest of the Cosina Voigtlander Bessas. The film Leica M's are quieter. Leaf shutter rangefinders are quieter than that. And the Konica Hexar AF in silent mode is tied with the M8 without batteries as being the quietest of all.
Stephen
Merkinz
Member
I don't want to hijack but could someone please comment on the Zeiss Ikon ZM compared to the above. Thanks.
Oh and my matchbox pinhole camera is rather quiet!
Oh and my matchbox pinhole camera is rather quiet!
lngu81
Established
R3m or R3a are not quite, you will not be satisfied by the metal shutter sound on these cameras, if you are looking for quietest camera. The paint on NEW r3a and r3m are the same now.
Personally I don't mind the shutter noise of either R3m or R3A, it's not loud enough to catch the attention of your subject from 2m away.
Personally I don't mind the shutter noise of either R3m or R3A, it's not loud enough to catch the attention of your subject from 2m away.
W
wlewisiii
Guest
I have watched these threads come and go here for years & I still don't understand them. Why this fetish for "quiet" shutters?
As long as there is no mirror slap, I've never had anyone notice a shutter even in the quietest of churches. IME, people just don't notice unless it's one of those big-as*ed, motor driven, mirror slapping, Kachunk, thunk, whirring SLR's. Do you really have anyone noticing? I'd be more concerned with having a nice accurate & reliable shutter that I can count on to give me the exposure I need.
William
As long as there is no mirror slap, I've never had anyone notice a shutter even in the quietest of churches. IME, people just don't notice unless it's one of those big-as*ed, motor driven, mirror slapping, Kachunk, thunk, whirring SLR's. Do you really have anyone noticing? I'd be more concerned with having a nice accurate & reliable shutter that I can count on to give me the exposure I need.
William
mh2000
Well-known
my Rebel G is probably quieter than the Bessas.
of course it is hardly, "one of those big-as*ed, motor driven, mirror slapping, Kachunk, thunk, whirring SLR's."
(don't know why I brought this up... but it's true.)
>>...people just don't notice unless it's one of those big-as*ed, motor driven, mirror slapping, Kachunk, thunk, whirring SLR's.
of course it is hardly, "one of those big-as*ed, motor driven, mirror slapping, Kachunk, thunk, whirring SLR's."
(don't know why I brought this up... but it's true.)
>>...people just don't notice unless it's one of those big-as*ed, motor driven, mirror slapping, Kachunk, thunk, whirring SLR's.
luketrash
Trying to find my range
Leaf shutters are quiet unless they're sitting on a Hasselblad
I own lots of cameras at this point. Bessa R2A, Leica M2, Canonet GIII, old folders with leaf shutters.
My point and shoot digital is still the quietest (and nearly the cheapest!)
It's also the most candid, and people don't even take me seriously when I'm using it!
I paid less for my Leica M2 than I paid for either my R3A or my R2A. It was a better deal so far in terms of reliability. Both of my Bessas had/have issues with overlapping frames and one of them had shutter problems.
Here's a youtube video I made to highlight the shutter problem, but you shutter fetishists can use it as a way to listen to the sound of the shutter firing repeatedly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50AfjZcqA4k&fmt=18
Oh, and here's my hasselblad. Yeah, it echoes off of the walls in my livingroom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA&fmt=18
My verdict? The Canonet is my nicest camera for the dollar in terms of quality, size, quietness, and lens sharpness.
You can't change the lens, but it beats buying a R2M and a 40mm Nokton by several hundred dollars.
Does the Leica send me into orgasmic fits when I throw the shutter? No, not really. It's a bit smoother and quieter than my Pentax Spotmatic (my other horizontal cloth shutter camera.) But people still know you're taking their picture.
I've just bought nearly everything, and most of the stuff I read on the internet is exagerated by owners of the equipment and exagerated conversely by people who have never even handled the equipment.
When these cameras work, they all make pictures that look about the same. Imagine that
I own lots of cameras at this point. Bessa R2A, Leica M2, Canonet GIII, old folders with leaf shutters.
My point and shoot digital is still the quietest (and nearly the cheapest!)
It's also the most candid, and people don't even take me seriously when I'm using it!
I paid less for my Leica M2 than I paid for either my R3A or my R2A. It was a better deal so far in terms of reliability. Both of my Bessas had/have issues with overlapping frames and one of them had shutter problems.
Here's a youtube video I made to highlight the shutter problem, but you shutter fetishists can use it as a way to listen to the sound of the shutter firing repeatedly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50AfjZcqA4k&fmt=18
Oh, and here's my hasselblad. Yeah, it echoes off of the walls in my livingroom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA&fmt=18
My verdict? The Canonet is my nicest camera for the dollar in terms of quality, size, quietness, and lens sharpness.
You can't change the lens, but it beats buying a R2M and a 40mm Nokton by several hundred dollars.
Does the Leica send me into orgasmic fits when I throw the shutter? No, not really. It's a bit smoother and quieter than my Pentax Spotmatic (my other horizontal cloth shutter camera.) But people still know you're taking their picture.
I've just bought nearly everything, and most of the stuff I read on the internet is exagerated by owners of the equipment and exagerated conversely by people who have never even handled the equipment.
When these cameras work, they all make pictures that look about the same. Imagine that
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mao
Member
Thanks!
Just to put things straight; I´d like the Bessa for other reasons than shutter sound. For example I think the 1:1 finder together with a 40,50mm lens is worth a lot. Shutter sound is just one issue I also like to consider. A Canonet, Olympus RC or similar will of course be quieter. I use an Olympus XA and it´s also really quiet.
But you can´t change lenses on these cameras which is not a good thing.
The black paint on the A/M doesn´t have the same finish.
What about reliability/accuracy of the shutter?
Just to put things straight; I´d like the Bessa for other reasons than shutter sound. For example I think the 1:1 finder together with a 40,50mm lens is worth a lot. Shutter sound is just one issue I also like to consider. A Canonet, Olympus RC or similar will of course be quieter. I use an Olympus XA and it´s also really quiet.
But you can´t change lenses on these cameras which is not a good thing.
The black paint on the A/M doesn´t have the same finish.
What about reliability/accuracy of the shutter?
luketrash
Trying to find my range
My shutter speeds on the Bessas were both accurate. I think the main problem with the camera is that externally they are built like 2500 dollar cameras. Internally, they are built like 100 dollar cameras as far as quality goes.
They are also a specialty item, so you don't have the benefit of Nikon or Canon mass production and quality control.
I am very greatful to Cosina to make these cameras and the lenses. It's awesome to be able to buy stuff like this new in 2008
I just think if a person is considering a Bessa to 'save money' that it may not really save them any money in the long run in terms of reliability and perfect performance.
I wear eyeglasses, and much prefer my R2A with the .72 finder, but if I did not wear glasses, the 1:1 finder is really great.
The R3 cameras have the 40mm frameline which is special as well. I miss having that. The 50mm framelines come up on my M2, and really it should be the 35mm framelines.
Personally, the thing that the Bessa RxA cameras offer the most value with is aperture priority for me. They are quicker to shoot with than manual Leicas if you are uncomfortable running a light meter and you are picky about close exposure.
They are also pretty fast to load, just like a modern SLR camera. The Canonet still beats them there though, haha.
As you can hear in my video, the shutter on the R3A makes a loud snap sound. Louder than some of my 35mm SLR cameras' mirror slap even. It's a bit quieter when you have a lens mounted to the body, but as you can also hear, the wind stroke itself is pretty loud. It sounds like you're zipping up a body bag every time you wind it.
They are also a specialty item, so you don't have the benefit of Nikon or Canon mass production and quality control.
I am very greatful to Cosina to make these cameras and the lenses. It's awesome to be able to buy stuff like this new in 2008
I just think if a person is considering a Bessa to 'save money' that it may not really save them any money in the long run in terms of reliability and perfect performance.
I wear eyeglasses, and much prefer my R2A with the .72 finder, but if I did not wear glasses, the 1:1 finder is really great.
The R3 cameras have the 40mm frameline which is special as well. I miss having that. The 50mm framelines come up on my M2, and really it should be the 35mm framelines.
Personally, the thing that the Bessa RxA cameras offer the most value with is aperture priority for me. They are quicker to shoot with than manual Leicas if you are uncomfortable running a light meter and you are picky about close exposure.
They are also pretty fast to load, just like a modern SLR camera. The Canonet still beats them there though, haha.
As you can hear in my video, the shutter on the R3A makes a loud snap sound. Louder than some of my 35mm SLR cameras' mirror slap even. It's a bit quieter when you have a lens mounted to the body, but as you can also hear, the wind stroke itself is pretty loud. It sounds like you're zipping up a body bag every time you wind it.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I'll repeat what Mike said about the Retina IIIS being about as quiet as you can get, if an interchangeable lens RF is critical. Lenses in focal lengths of 28, 35, 50, 85 and 135; the framelines come up automatically Leica-style, though the 28 requires a separate finder.
If the 1:1 finder is key for you, you might consider a Canon P. I'd say the shutter of the P is definitely quieter than that of the Bessas. Framelines are only for 35, 50 and 100, however. A very elegant camera.
If the 1:1 finder is key for you, you might consider a Canon P. I'd say the shutter of the P is definitely quieter than that of the Bessas. Framelines are only for 35, 50 and 100, however. A very elegant camera.
ferider
Veteran
Skip the Bessa, get an M3 .... Does not cost so much more ....
The absolutely quietest interchangable lens RF I have ever used was a Contax III of a friend. Amazing.
Cheers,
Roland.
The absolutely quietest interchangable lens RF I have ever used was a Contax III of a friend. Amazing.
Cheers,
Roland.
R
ruben
Guest
On the basis of my Kievs I would believe it. Furthermore, I believe any Leica given a real high quality CLA would be as quiet or more.
Cheers,
Ruben
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ferider
Veteran
For this you would have to hold them next to each other, wouldn't you Ruben
I did (M3 that is) and hate to say the Contax was quieter.
Roland.
I did (M3 that is) and hate to say the Contax was quieter.
Roland.
R
ruben
Guest
For this you would have to hold them next to each other, wouldn't you Ruben
.....
Not exactly as you may mean, unless you specify: A Contax and a Leica should be compared after being given both a good CLA.
It is precisely the CLA factor that I base myself upon, after seeing the silencing wonders Oleg did on a Fed 2, after hearing a long ago CLA-ed Leica M2, and after appreciating what I do with my Kievs.
The sound of cameras per-se don't tell much, unless they are new from the factory, and fresh manufactured.
Cheers,
Ruben
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mao
Member
This wasn´t really meant to be a "which rangefinder thread". I had made up my mind buying either a R3A or M with a Nokton 40. But since this is the Bessa-part of the forum and some of you suggests other cameras maybe I have to reconsider.
Is the quality really that bad?
Actually, what made me interested in the first place was the Nokton 40mm. A small, sharp 1,4 lens with a nice angle of view (in my opinion of course).
Then there was the Bessa R3 (A or M) with:
1:1 finder (which is nice) with a 40 mm frame. Perfect combo I thougt.
Lightweight body, lighter than the indestructible Leicas. Maybe not as sturdy but normally, if overall quality is good, it doesn´t bother me that much since I don´t use cameras as hammers.
The camera has a lightmeter, also a good thing which the affordable Leicas don´t have. Well a M6 is kind of affordable today but won´t fit that nice together with the Nokton 40 mm.
Minolta CLE or Leica CL then...
The idea is a camera I won´t leave at home, but with a quality better than most P&S.
Today an OM-1 fills this purpose, but I feel like trying a rangefinder.
One lens (to start with), preferably the 40.
Maybe I´ll buy another lens if I like the camera. It would be a wideangle 21 or 25 which will need a separate finder in any case (unless I buy a Bessa R4).
I kind of felt that the R3(A,M) would fit my needs perfect. Honestly, rangefinders are at best in the area around 50mm.
To conclude, this is what I value (in order):
Affordable, which means no Leica M7,MD,M8. Used M6 (not mint) is about the upper limit.
Quality (see above), no need to be more heavy-duty than the average canon eos 20, 30, 40 or similar.
Lightmeter in camera (AE nice, but not a must)
Interchangeable lenses.
Good an accurate finder with a 40 mm frame (I can live with 35 and 50 as well if the Bessa R3 quality really is that bad as it seems...)
Compact and light (relative but at least no bigger than my OM-1 with 50 1,8)
And this quiet shutter thing is more like if there are two similar cameras I´d like the quietest. More important than AE.
Thats about it!
Is the quality really that bad?
Actually, what made me interested in the first place was the Nokton 40mm. A small, sharp 1,4 lens with a nice angle of view (in my opinion of course).
Then there was the Bessa R3 (A or M) with:
1:1 finder (which is nice) with a 40 mm frame. Perfect combo I thougt.
Lightweight body, lighter than the indestructible Leicas. Maybe not as sturdy but normally, if overall quality is good, it doesn´t bother me that much since I don´t use cameras as hammers.
The camera has a lightmeter, also a good thing which the affordable Leicas don´t have. Well a M6 is kind of affordable today but won´t fit that nice together with the Nokton 40 mm.
Minolta CLE or Leica CL then...
The idea is a camera I won´t leave at home, but with a quality better than most P&S.
Today an OM-1 fills this purpose, but I feel like trying a rangefinder.
One lens (to start with), preferably the 40.
Maybe I´ll buy another lens if I like the camera. It would be a wideangle 21 or 25 which will need a separate finder in any case (unless I buy a Bessa R4).
I kind of felt that the R3(A,M) would fit my needs perfect. Honestly, rangefinders are at best in the area around 50mm.
To conclude, this is what I value (in order):
Affordable, which means no Leica M7,MD,M8. Used M6 (not mint) is about the upper limit.
Quality (see above), no need to be more heavy-duty than the average canon eos 20, 30, 40 or similar.
Lightmeter in camera (AE nice, but not a must)
Interchangeable lenses.
Good an accurate finder with a 40 mm frame (I can live with 35 and 50 as well if the Bessa R3 quality really is that bad as it seems...)
Compact and light (relative but at least no bigger than my OM-1 with 50 1,8)
And this quiet shutter thing is more like if there are two similar cameras I´d like the quietest. More important than AE.
Thats about it!
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P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Ok, I use a Bessa R2, which sounds like a shotgun going off during a quiet measure in a concert hall. Trust me, I thought the R2 was quiet until everyone looked over to see what fell on the floor what I tripped the shutter. And yes, I was allowed to take photos as I was one of the event photographers.
In real life on the street, the Bessa is OK, but my M3 was definitely much, much quieter. And yes, my Canon G2 is virtually silent. My Minolta Hi-Matic was very, very quiet. The Bessa shutter has a rattly sound while the ZI shutter has more solid sound that seems a tiny bit quieter.
As for build quality, my Bessa R2, which supposedly built inferior to the new A's and M's, has proven a tough little beast. It feels fragile and flimsy compared to the ZI and M, but since I 'fixed' the rangerfinder issues, it has taken a pounding, bouncing around in the handlebar bag of my bicycle or getting banged up in my handbag. I do not baby it at all. Will it last as long as a ZI or M, I doubt it, but who cares, it only cost a fraction of either of those bodies and I have a few spares to use if something goes wrong. Even the robust M has to be serviced once in a while.
In real life on the street, the Bessa is OK, but my M3 was definitely much, much quieter. And yes, my Canon G2 is virtually silent. My Minolta Hi-Matic was very, very quiet. The Bessa shutter has a rattly sound while the ZI shutter has more solid sound that seems a tiny bit quieter.
As for build quality, my Bessa R2, which supposedly built inferior to the new A's and M's, has proven a tough little beast. It feels fragile and flimsy compared to the ZI and M, but since I 'fixed' the rangerfinder issues, it has taken a pounding, bouncing around in the handlebar bag of my bicycle or getting banged up in my handbag. I do not baby it at all. Will it last as long as a ZI or M, I doubt it, but who cares, it only cost a fraction of either of those bodies and I have a few spares to use if something goes wrong. Even the robust M has to be serviced once in a while.
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