Rangefinder beginer

gareth

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Hello Rangefinder forum. Just joined, and am looking for advice on possibly purchasing a new Bessa R2a. I'd very much appreciate your help.

Sorry about the long post.

I currently shoot using a Canon EOS 5D and two EOS30’s Since purchasing the 5D last December, most of my wok is now shot on this camera. However while I am happy with digital colour work, I cannot quite get the right look with b&w shots. So I still shoot b&w film with my 30’s and continue to do my own developing and printing. To me nothing looks quite like b&w film printed on good quality b&w paper.

For a number of reasons I’d like to try shooting with a rangefinder. The two main reasons are size, rangefinders and their lenses are that much smaller then auto-focus SLR kit. The other is about how people react to cameras. I want a camera that doesn’t mark me out as a photographer in the eyes of others.

I have experimented with a Canonet but found it frustrating. I’d like a more sophisticated camera.

I have a had a flick through the pages here, and get the feeling that a Bessa R2a could be the camera for me. Unfortunately it’s difficult for me to get my hands on one, so it looks like I will have to purchase mail order which makes me a little nervous. If I go for it, I’ll be buying blind. So I have a few questions, and I’d very much appreciate any help here.

Focusing - I find the Canonet difficult to focus. In subdued light it’s easy, but in bright light or contrasty light it can be difficult to see clearly in the viewfinder. Nor will the Canonet focus particularly close, I like to get close to whatever is going on, but I‘m guessing this is a general rangefinder weakness, I‘ll just have to get used to it . I have used manual focus SLR’s in the past, and while the focusing can be very accurate, I’ve never liked split prism focusing, it was too small on my Canon A1, and focusing I found fiddly. As such I took to auto-focus like a duck to water. So how good is the view and the focusing with the Bessa R2a, is it clear and quick or will I be fiddling about trying to get good focus. I shoot a lot of documentary and street stuff, so I need something I can focus quickly and accurately. I like focus to be spot on. Do you find rangefinder focusing quicker and more accurate than manual SLR split prisim focusing?

The f1.7 Ultron seem to me to be a good place to start with this rangefinder. Read lots of stuff here about it. So my only question is as it’s a screw fit lens (isn’t it), does the adapter compromise it in any way? Does the adapter pretty much become part of the lens, in other words you forget it’s there.

While I like shooting with a 35mm lens, my favourite fixed lens is my 24mmL on my SLR’s. So if I take to the Bessa the next lens I would add would probably be something wider. But I can’t say I’m keen on additional viewfinders. What roughly does the full view in the viewfinder relate to? Do wider than 35mm lens still focus in the usual way, or do you have to resort to using the lens scale.

Exposure. Is the internal meter accurate? Is it similar to centre weighted in an SLR. While I use multi-pattern metering in my SLR I treat it pretty much as I would centre weighted. In other words I know it can be fooled, I meter from a neutral area and use AE lock. Does the Bessa have a similar AE lock facility? Do any of you confidently shoot slide film based on the Bessa meter readings?

Reliability. I’m used to the reliability of my Canon SLR’s They have proved to be pretty tough. I don’t abuse my cameras but at times they are subjected to pretty rough handling. Will the Bessa take roll after roll after roll and will it take the odd knock and occasionally rough handling?

Sorry this is so long, but not being able to get my hands on a Bessa makes coming to a decision that much harder.

Any recommendations for dealers? I was thinking of Ffordes. I live in Ayshire, Scotland, so if anybody knows of a Voightlander dealer in Ayrshire or Glasgow area?

Again any help very much appreciated.

Gareth Harper.
 
Massive Post.

Focussing - The R2a has a small baselength and is not good for critical focussing. This is not a problem with my 40/1.4 in daylight or if I take my time at lower stops - but I problems with my 85/2. The rangerfinder window and patch are great - much better than the canonet.
However, if you're not used to focussing with a rangefinder be prepared for some pain - I've shot may 40 rolls so far over the past four months and I'm still not quite "at one" with it. Just because I'm so used to using an SLR.

Reliability/build - Can't say for anyone else, but it has put up with knocks and beer spills fine with me.

The outside frame is more like ~28mm, 24mm needs a viewfinder. I had a 21/4 (and still have a 24/2 in OM mount) and I don't focus with either unless it is close up - hyperfocal focussing for me.

The Bessa does have AE lock (a button that falls under your right thumb). I've shot 16 rolls of slide film with my R2a - all the faults have been mine, recent slides have all been fine. The metering pattern has caught me out a few times: http://cameraquest.com/jpg6/Bessa-R meter.jpg

PS I got my Voigtlander gear from Robert White (UK based) and they were grand.
 
bessa

bessa

Thanks Kully,

I have to admit to knowing very little about rangefinders.

When you say critical, do you mean the pin point focusing required for shooting wide open with a longer lens, or can it be difficult with even a 35mm. I do often shoot Delta 3200 often with wide lenses towards full open.

The patch? Whats, that?

I did handle an X-pan a while back briefly and found the focusing very good. My big problem with the Canonet (it's a QL17 G3) is that I just can't see the double image half the time, and more importantly when it has come together and as such is in focus. I couldn't capture the right moment as I was fiddling with the focus all the time, and when people are moving about this becomes a big problem. This is the thing I'm really nervous about. I don't want to buy a camera I can't focus much of the time.

I do at times climb over things, get pushed and shoved about, been knocked over by others, had to leg it with a riot police charges behind me etc. Sounds dramatic but it's just occasional rough and tumble, which the EOS's seem to take in their stride (though had to get my 24L repaired recently, and that was just dropping it on the carpet in the house!)

28mm full viewfinder window then. Anybody shoot 25mm lenses using the viewfinder as a guide, or is that too much guess work?
 
The focus on the R2A will be chalk and cheese compared to an old QL17. Most of the Canonettes have oxidised and hard to see. The Bessas use the Leica type rangefinder patch that has defined edges that permit a sort of split image focus as well as the image overlap type. This is considered many times more acurate.

I didnt find the viewfinder quite as wide as a 28mm lens so believe a separate finder is required but some find it easier to scroll their eye around to work it better.

An R2a with an Ultron 35mm f1.7 is a good first choice rangefinder outfit.
 
gareth said:
When you say critical, do you mean the pin point focusing required for shooting wide open with a longer lens, or can it be difficult with even a 35mm. I do often shoot Delta 3200 often with wide lenses towards full open.
You will have no problem focusing with a 50 or wider.

gareth said:
The patch? Whats, that?
The rangefinder focuing patch (the area where the double image appears).

gareth said:
I did handle an X-pan a while back briefly and found the focusing very good. My big problem with the Canonet (it's a QL17 G3) is that I just can't see the double image half the time, and more importantly when it has come together and as such is in focus. I couldn't capture the right moment as I was fiddling with the focus all the time, and when people are moving about this becomes a big problem. This is the thing I'm really nervous about. I don't want to buy a camera I can't focus much of the time.

The focusing patch on a Bessa is much brighter and has more contrast than the Canonet.

Rangefinder type camera's are very good for this kind of thing. Just don't even try to fiddle. Set the aperature and shutter speed to as close to the hyper focal distance for the lens you are using and just snap away, that way you don't have to get the two images in the patch exact, just close. With my Bessa R I can shoot with both eyes open so I can see what is both inside and outside the frame and (at least) try to catch what is going on.

gareth said:
I do at times climb over things, get pushed and shoved about, been knocked over by others, had to leg it with a riot police charges behind me etc. Sounds dramatic but it's just occasional rough and tumble, which the EOS's seem to take in their stride (though had to get my 24L repaired recently, and that was just dropping it on the carpet in the house!)

The Bessa should survive anything the EOS will, I believe it is lighter also, you should get a bit of a speed increase while fleeing.

gareth said:
28mm full viewfinder window then. Anybody shoot 25mm lenses using the viewfinder as a guide, or is that too much guess work?

Someone else will have to help here. I don't shoot that wide on my R but you can always add a separate viewfinder.
 
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You really should get comfortable with hyperfocal use. I came from the EOS world as well and was really nervous trying to use my 21 without actually focusing. However, with the R2a set to aperture priority and the 21 set to hyperfocal everything between 4 ft. and inifity I have a package that is much faster to shoot with than any auto-focus could possibly be. It's actually been incredibly liberating. And don't get too hung up on the auxillary finder - it seems weird for the first little bit but it's really bright and since you don't need to focus or check exposure (the meter in the R2a is very good) it's really just there to compose and shoot.

I love the 35 1.7 as well. I'd be very surprised if you regret your choice.
 
I went through a similar thought process as yourself Gareth, until I tried an Bessa R. If you can get a chance go and visit Ffordes in Scotland, I've no idea how far it would be to travel but you would get a chance to handle a Bessa first before commiting the cash. They also have a cracking used range of cameras that might suite you including Voigtlanders and Leicas. Just call them first, a very good bunch to deal with. Note I do not have any direct association with them (not on the payroll).

As you already have experience with the Canonet, you pretty much understand the differences of RF v SLR.

An R2a is a cracking RF camera that will be fine with lenses from 28 (use outside edge of the VF) to 90 although a fast (F2 close up) focus will be hard. The VF is very bright, RF patch a joy to use and the build better than my Bessa R (screw mount). External VFs are not a big problem for me, I use a 28 regularly on my Bessa L and have no problems. I just use the hyperfocal method.

Using wider leses than 28 are simple with the external VF, focus is a doddle. They will work well on any Bessa boty (mount permitting)

If you can, try before you buy, the RF may be just what you want, or not. Good luck in your quest.
 
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If you prefer auto focus to manual focus and you are comfortable with the 5D's viewfinder, you really should consider a Contax G2. I shoot with a 5D, an R3A, and the G2. The auto focus on the G2 is really quite good and the transition from the 5D to the G2 is very easy.
 
Gareth,

Welcome and great questions, well thought through.

In looking at what you want the camera for and you favorite lens (in SLR), I would make a different recommendation. First let me say, you will not be ill served by what you thought of, great choice, but I think there is a better one.

I think you should look at a Bessa L with a 25/4 CV lens. You like the focal length and you are looking for something bullet-proof. The L has no rangefinder to go out of wack when you hit the ground in a roll. With a 25/4 you really can use hyper focal length focusing very very well. It is smaller than any Bessa R (a few silly millimeters) and it is less expensive (you can buy another lens and body for the cost of the R2A).

The L also has the LEDs on the back top of the camera. This allows you to adjust the exposure without bringing the camera to your eye. As a matter a fact, you can adjust the exposure and guess the distance then bring the camera to you eye to compose and shoot. Much faster at times you might not want to be spotted, if you know what I mean.

I use this combo as my carry everywhere camera, I love the lens (the distortion is very low) and the camera price does not make me worry about replacing it if something happens. I moved from Leica to Bessas for that very reason.

Stephen Gandy at www.CameraQuest.com might have few black bodies and lenses still available new, ask. Robert White and PhotoVillage did not seem to have either in black. This is not a requirement, but might be handy for you.

Stephen has the brown cases on sale for a $1 USD when you buy a camera. Get the case and trash the top. The bottom will help protect you camera.

As long as you get a good adapter (e.g. Leica, CV) you will have no problem with using a LTM (screw mount) lens on any M body (Leica, Zeiss Ikon, Bessa). Of the three lenses I carry with me in my Bessa T kit, two are LTM (CV 15/4.5, Nikkor 105/2.5). The other is a CV 40/1.4.

I gave my 35/1.7 to my son when I got the 40/1.4. The 40 is a great lens, IMHO better than the 35/1.7 and it fits my three lens kit better.

If you like a 25mm lens, you do not need a rangefinder, guess the distance. I’ve been doing this for about 4 years now and of hundreds of shots, only three have ever come out bad.

The Bessa R2A is a great choice, but I think you can move up to it once you have been bitten by the bug and use RF for more work.

Just my 2 cents. Hope this helps.

B2 (;->
 
Hi Gareth and welcome to RFF!

I´m new to rangfinders too and I just re-opened my darkroom after 3 years. In daily life, I always work with heavey Eos 1ds´s and flash systems and computers -so I now your problems with heavy equitment and digital black and white and the feel of "real" pictures!

I bought a R2A and a nokton 35mm 1,2 but at some point Bessa is not enough, so I will buy a Leica soon and I will keep my Bessa as a second camera and I use my Bessa a lot in church for wedding pictures etc. When I used DSLR for the same pictures I was forbidden to take pictures inside the church, but now no one notices me, so I feel this is the way to go for better and different pictures of course without flash (why else have a small camra with god linses?)!

I wish you many hours of enjoying photografing again - I do (after I got Rangfinder)

Lars
 
I am right on south coast(UK) and have brought from ffordes, unseen. I was very impressed. Not only did the chap on the phone give a really honest discription of the camera body, but once it arrived, it became he clear he was being very critical. I will buy from them again.
 
Bessa

Bessa

Thanks for all the replies, and the big welcome to Rangefinder forum!

It's a fair old trip up to Ffordes. I do have some time of later in the month and haven't decided exactly what to do. One thing I do love is heading out to the Hebrides on my bike. So I could take a bit of a de-tour on the way home and pop by Ffordes.

Did see a Bessa in Jessops in Glasgow. I thought it looked very nice indeed. But I never asked for a look at the time, and now they no longer deal in rangefinders.

I do hyperfocal focusing on the Eos's in a roundabout way. The lens markings are poor, so I'll focus on anything round about the distance I want to work at for a few frames with my 24, then flick the switch to manual and fire away at leisure with the lens at f8 or f11 (assuming I have plenty of light) I just re-check my distance now and again or move the ring back and forth a few bit as required. It's great to shoot close without having to focus, so mad super wide 21mm lens and stuff could interest me later on.

I'm not that keen on the L, I'd really want some kind of viewfinder, but I know they work for many folks.

Larss, exactly, with an SLR, even a simple one people pay attention to you, often I find this very useful I stick on the grip and use a big f2.8 zoom and bingo everybody is watching you. But then at other times this is the last thing I want. With a rangefinder people just don't pay much attention to you at all often. I suspect to those who don't know it's not a serious camera. Also so nice and small to carry about.

Quinn, I tend to use the 5D set on single shot focus, single shot shutter and on AP priority. So I figured things won't be that different when using the Bessa.

And now I know what the 'patch' is.

Thanks, will read all this again tomorrow, just got in, I'm tired and it's late. Lots of good points to consider and think about. Thank-you all.
 
Mmm

Mmm

Still not bought anything yet, but seriously thinking about it.

It's still the Bessa r2a I fancy. Part of the attraction is it's a lovely looking camera, and it's back to basics, albet with the addition of AP priority which is very welcome I think.

I take it as nobody commented on it, using the screw to bayonet mounts is not an issue. Becomes pat of the lens?

A few more questions spring to mind........ Another part of the attraction of the rangefinder is sharpness. I'm told that the distance between the film plane and the rear element plays a part here. So I'm told anyway, and of course with the rangefinder it's much closer. So is it true, are rangefinder negs really that good bit sharper than SLR's, or is it a myth. And is it true of the Ultron, is this reasonably priced lens honestly something to get excited about? I am a sharpness freak, I love sharp b&w pictures.

Finders. Are the Voigtlander additional finders good quality? A 25mm Voightlander finder is about 100 quid (quite expensive enough me thinks) but the Zeiss finder is about 250 quid. Is there a performance benefit of the Zeiss item, or is it more robust, or is it simply just nice quality finishing touches?

Shutter. I read the bessa is not particularly quiet, but it will be quieter then my 5d and 30's (which are very quiet for SLR's). I often work with film makers. I often have to stop shooting when they roll, which is a real pain. I would love a camera that allows me to continue to snap when the motion camera is rolling.

Are Bessa easily serviced? If it does break down, or you do something stupid, is it easy to fix. I know a good old time camera repair service in Glasgow, they repair old style mechanical cameras for very reasonable money. Is the Bessa still old school, or do it's electronics get in the way?

Oh and which do you find easier to focus? A rangefinder, or a manual SLR? Or is this just a silly question an a rangefinder forum!

Oh and perhaps the most important question of all. Colour/finish. Black, or black and grey? I think plain old black looks nice.

Oooooo what to do. Thank-you for all the help so far. Decision time is approaching.
 
gareth said:
Still not bought anything yet, but seriously thinking about it.

It's still the Bessa r2a I fancy. Part of the attraction is it's a lovely looking camera, and it's back to basics, albet with the addition of AP priority which is very welcome I think.
Good choice
I take it as nobody commented on it, using the screw to bayonet mounts is not an issue. Becomes pat of the lens?
Yes
A few more questions spring to mind........ Another part of the attraction of the rangefinder is sharpness. I'm told that the distance between the film plane and the rear element plays a part here. So I'm told anyway, and of course with the rangefinder it's much closer. So is it true, are rangefinder negs really that good bit sharper than SLR's, or is it a myth. And is it true of the Ultron, is this reasonably priced lens honestly something to get excited about? I am a sharpness freak, I love sharp b&w pictures.
No significant IQ difference between RFs and SLRs as long as you do your stuff
Finders. Are the Voigtlander additional finders good quality? A 25mm Voightlander finder is about 100 quid (quite expensive enough me thinks) but the Zeiss finder is about 250 quid. Is there a performance benefit of the Zeiss item, or is it more robust, or is it simply just nice quality finishing touches?
Don't know personally, but everything I've had from CV has been very good in my judgement
Shutter. I read the bessa is not particularly quiet, but it will be quieter then my 5d and 30's (which are very quiet for SLR's). I often work with film makers. I often have to stop shooting when they roll, which is a real pain. I would love a camera that allows me to continue to snap when the motion camera is rolling.
Bessa shutter is higher pitched, slightly quieter and shorter sound duration than 5D with mirror noise. 5D with the mirror locked up is quieter. I met a person who had a blimp for his 5D made somewhere in California. You couldn't hear a thing unless you were the photog, with your face pressed up against it
Are Bessa easily serviced? If it does break down, or you do something stupid, is it easy to fix. I know a good old time camera repair service in Glasgow, they repair old style mechanical cameras for very reasonable money. Is the Bessa still old school, or do it's electronics get in the way?
Sorry, don't know
Oh and which do you find easier to focus? A rangefinder, or a manual SLR? Or is this just a silly question an a rangefinder forum!
About the same when you get used to it. RFs do better with WA lenses (only critical at very wide apertures). SLRs do better with long lenses (where you really need it)
Oh and perhaps the most important question of all. Colour/finish. Black, or black and grey? I think plain old black looks nice.
Your decision!
Oooooo what to do. Thank-you for all the help so far. Decision time is approaching.
 
gareth said:
Oh and which do you find easier to focus? A rangefinder, or a manual SLR? Or is this just a silly question an a rangefinder forum!

I think this in large degree depends on the camera, especially the SLR. Some SLRs had very bright viewfinders, while others were average or poor.

The viewfinder in a Yashica/Kyocera Contax SLR is impressively bright. Same goes for a Rolleiflex SL 35E.

The Nikon viewfinder, while large and very usable, is not nearly as bright, compared with the previous two. Same applies to some of the Pentax and Minolta. I've not been a Canon user, so I can't comment on this.

Where this becomes an issue is in low-light situations, where a bright SLR screen makes a noticeable difference. And this also is where the rangefinder will have an advantage.

For action or sports photography or taking photos of your young child as he or she scurries around on the floor, I think an SLR with autofocus is superior.

I also should add that not everyone makes an easy transition to rangefinders, especially those who have used highly automated cameras almost exclusively.

With the manual cameras, you begin to think about apertures, shutter speeds, hyperfocal settings, depth of field and even timing your shot in a way that you don't consider when shooting rapid fire sequences with an automated SLR. And then on top of that there is the need to focus and recompose.
 
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Go to Robert White and try the camera and lens. Just email or phone first to tell them when you'd like to go. Today 14:25

1000 mile round trip. Would take two days and cost a fair bit of cash.

The only other dealer I'm aware of is, Ffordes in Beauly, round trip of about 440 miles, so could do it in a day, but still expensive.

Hence all the questions.
 
Hi Gareth,

You already have some great answers and advice.

I think your choice of RF is good.

On the focusing questions, you really can't directly compare focusing with an slr vs. rf because IMO, the operating procedure is so different between the two cameras. You'll need to definitely practice and get used to the way a RF camera focuses. It will feel very strange and uncomfortable for you in the beginning, especially if you're used to operating an AF slr. You already had a taste of that with the Canonet. Your Bessa will handle in a very similar way albeit with probably a brighter and contrastier RF patch.

And I also recommend that for your choice of lens (I think you said 24mm), and street shooting, you'll most likely be using hyperfocal distance and most of the time, you won't need to worry about critical focusing (nearly as much as when you have an AF slr working on AF).

Once it all comes together, you'll experience a feeling of freedom, and you'll find yourself concentrating on just getting the composition and moment instead of worrying about focus and exposure.

Good luck!

--Warren
 
Thanks Warren,

I like the way the Canonet focuses, just I can't see the patch half or frankly most of the time. If I could see the patch I'd probably be happier focusing rangefinder lenses than I would manual SLR lenses. However I can see that the manual SLR will be better with longer lenses. If only I could get my hands on one.

As for auto-focus, I'll select the centre point most of the time, focus, then meter off something and AE lock if required, compose then shoot. I often switch the lens to manual focus once I have focus and fire off a number of frames as required.

As you say hyperfocal is fine with 24mm and wider, that is until you open up to f2.

Will start off with 35mm f1.7 Ultron.

The feeling of freedom I hope comes from people not looking nervously at my camera, me not feeling self-consious about it and the knowledge that my camera bag ain't gonna make my shoulder hurt at the end of the day.

Ziess,

With the manual cameras, you begin to think about apertures, shutter speeds, hyperfocal settings, depth of field and even timing your shot in a way that you don't consider when shooting rapid fire sequences with an automated SLR. And then on top of that there is the need to focus and recompose.

I don't see these differences. I don't use my autofocus SLR's as point and shoot cameras.
The big thing for me about auto-focus was knowing that when I place the sensor on the point I want to be the centre of focus and then pressed the button to focus, I know that when sensor lights up it's in focus, it's not is it in focus, it really is in focus.
I didn't use a manual focus SLR again, and don't suppose I ever will.

That's why ask about manual SLR focus and rangefinder focus. I don't like manual SLR focus, but perhaps I might take to rangefinder focusing.
 
Ffordes depend on Robert White for their stock and it's often 'not available'. Ffordes was my first choice last year as I have known them since they were in Southend on Sea, but they quoted four weeks delivery whereas Robert White had the camera and assorted stuff in stock and promised next day delivery - to Portugal.

Do add the VAT to Robert White's prices.

With a Voigtlander you do not need a camera bag at all, the batteries last about a year and you can easily stuff a few films in a jacket pocket.
 
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