Rangefinderless Rangefinder

Bill Pierce

Bill Pierce

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Does a Leica M camera have to be a rangefinder? The tolerances of the lens cam and the camera body cam feeler and rangefinder mechanism have to be small if a range of lenses and bodies are to give spot on focus with large aperture lenses wide open. It's a tough and expensive standard when folks are looking at images at 100% on their computers. The rangefinder mechanism was one of the most expensive components of the film Leica. I imagine it's still a good portion of the digital bodies.

Live View, unlike the rangefinder, uses the image on the sensor. Normally a magnified Live View should provide very accurate focus with a variety of lenses without being too expensive. Would a Leica be a Leica if it used magnified Live View to focus and its bright line finder for shooting, if it had no rangefinder? It might be a less expensive Leica and more affordable for young photographers just starting out (or old photographers on Social Security).

What do you think? Is this all B.S. or is it something that could work?
 
For me the rangefinder is what makes the Leica a Leica. Live View is being done by dozens of other manufacturers, and likely better than Leica can do at this point.

But then, what do I know? I am still struggling a bit with a digital Leica that cannot even work at all unless it has charged batteries in it. Maybe a rangefinder that uses a electonic "live view" viewfinder that takes its information from the sensor is the next logical step.
 
Bill Pierce said:
Does a Leica M camera have to be a rangefinder? The tolerances of the lens cam and the camera body cam feeler and rangefinder mechanism have to be small if a range of lenses and bodies are to give spot on focus with large aperture lenses wide open. It's a tough and expensive standard when folks are looking at images at 100% on their computers. The rangefinder mechanism was one of the most expensive components of the film Leica. I imagine it's still a good portion of the digital bodies.

Live View, unlike the rangefinder, uses the image on the sensor. Normally a magnified Live View should provide very accurate focus with a variety of lenses without being too expensive. Would a Leica be a Leica if it used magnified Live View to focus and its bright line finder for shooting, if it had no rangefinder? It might be a less expensive Leica and more affordable for young photographers just starting out (or old photographers on Social Security).

What do you think? Is this all B.S. or is it something that could work?
Click to expand...
Does the pope have to be a Catholic?

You can redefine things anyway you like. But as soon as you drop the optical Meßsucher, for most people, including me, it's no longer an M: just another damn' EVF camera. Why not put a mirror behind the lens and redefine an M as a reflex (cf early Alpas)?

Cheers,

R.
 
I'm curious how a HUD that does focus peeking instead of a rangefinder patch might work. Seems like it could give a very similar feel as current RFs, but I don't know how difficult it would be to implement.
 
VTHokiEE said:
I'm curious how a HUD that does focus peeking instead of a rangefinder patch might work. Seems like it could give a very similar feel as current RFs, but I don't know how difficult it would be to implement.
Click to expand...
IMHO it is not the same. There is something visceral about actually seeing your subject not watching a video of it. But that's just me.
And, ah, yes I think the Pope is Catholic. I think it's kinda like a rule or something. My Rabbi told me that he has to be Jewish. Probably like the same thing. So we all kind of know what a Leica is supposed to be , but, you know, the times they are a changing.
 
What I like in my m7 (or in Leica in general) are the small size and light weight, the quality of the lenses which of course can be reflected on the quality of the photographs. If the correct focus is obtained by a rangefinder or any other mechanism does not interest me very much, so long it works well. Probably a different mechanism is less fragile.
robert
 
kshapero said:
IMHO it is not the same. There is something visceral about actually seeing your subject not watching a video of it. But that's just me.
And, ah, yes I think the Pope is Catholic. I think it's kinda like a rule or something. My Rabbi told me that he has to be Jewish. Probably like the same thing. So we all kind of know what a Leica is supposed to be , but, you know, the times they are a changing.
Click to expand...

I don't mean remove the optical viewfinder and replace the entire viewfinder with an EVF (maybe the patch becomes an EFV? I'm not certain how HUDs exactly work).
 
kshapero said:
IMHO it is not the same. There is something visceral about actually seeing your subject not watching a video of it. But that's just me.
And, ah, yes I think the Pope is Catholic. I think it's kinda like a rule or something. My Rabbi told me that he has to be Jewish. Probably like the same thing. So we all kind of know what a Leica is supposed to be , but, you know, the times they are a changing.
Click to expand...
Ah... so we get Orthodox, Reform and Progressive Leica users... I know some jokes along that line, including the one about the Honda and the Bar Mitzvah.

100% agreement about your post.

Cheers,

R.
 
It's time for new technology. Bill is right, mechanical tolerances are expensive and many times brand new digital Ms out of the box simply will not focus accurately with brand new Leica glass out of the box.

As a dealer I've often sent both directly out for calibration. Needless time and expense.

A true hybrid of electronic and optical is needed. Not done Fuji style...that's a start but what I'm thinking is an electronic RF patch so that focus is indeed @ the sensor and not subject to mechanical tolerance variations.
 
Why not? Leica D-Lux (rebranded Panny P&S) is a Leica.
The question is whether it is still a Leica. If it has Leica logo, Leica branding, Leica support and service, it is a Leica.
May not be an M or an S, but still a Leica in my opinion.
Would they have a hard time competing with the likes of Fuji, most probably. But it can still be a Leica and the Optical Viewfinder is most likely superior to that of Fuji.
 
digitalintrigue said:
A true hybrid of electronic and optical is needed. Not done Fuji style...that's a start but what I'm thinking is an electronic RF patch so that focus is indeed @ the sensor and not subject to mechanical tolerance variations.
Click to expand...

I agree... this would be excellent. Projected into the finder, simultaneously ovf and evf. Don't know if Leica will do it, though... perhaps we'll have to wait for Fuji. We'll see...
 
NeeZee said:
Why would a young photographer on a budget buy a digital Leica?
Click to expand...

...when all new models Leica puts out so blatantly favour the rich and famous of the planet?

I think Leica would be damn fools to create an non-rangefinder Leica M, because the brand would turn into a mass-production company and it would maybe sell them more camera's but the margin on each individual camera would be much less.

As a comparison, not likely we will see:

  • a cheaper Rolex for the masses
  • a budget edition Ferrari
  • a $65 Louis Vutton grocery bag
  • a $80.000 Lear Jet

anytime soon 😀
 
I think it's just a matter of time before there is a full frame RF less M camera.

There are some things that make EVF focusing with current EVIL cameras inferior to RF focusing that could improved upon:

The trade between framing and focusing is the biggest compromise;
I would like to see a picture in picture magnified view that is brought up when the lens is focused.
This would be easily done using the RF cam on the lens to push a rotary encoder.
Adding contrast peaking as per the GXR to the picture in picture would also be a nice option.

I do find framing <28mm lenses much nicer on the LCD than OVF.
If I get a M-240 the 21mm will live on it.

Perhaps for most of us, an EVIL M would be seen as compliment to a RF M rather than a replacement.
On the other hand Leica is building a large new factory for volume sales. A mini-M could be the perfect first Leica.
 
Bill Pierce said:
What do you think? Is this all B.S. or is it something that could work?
Click to expand...
Of course it would both work and be less expensive to build. It wouldn't however provide the same functionality. There are different types of cameras and they best appeal to different people. Liveview is old news in 2012, although Leica is only now getting there with the M cameras.

The really interesting question is when and how Leica (or some other company) will re-invent the mechanical rangefinder (or provide a completely new alternative). Liveview allows easy and reliable adjustment of the coupling mechanism. It should be implemented such that the user has easy access to the adjustments, and obviously it should not be necessary to remove the lens to perform the adjustment. Removable top plate? I don't know.
 
buzzardkid said:
...when all new models Leica puts out so blatantly favour the rich and famous of the planet?

I think Leica would be damn fools to create an non-rangefinder Leica M, because the brand would turn into a mass-production company and it would maybe sell them more camera's but the margin on each individual camera would be much less.

As a comparison, not likely we will see:


[*]a cheaper Rolex for the masses
[*]a budget edition Ferrari
[*]a $65 Louis Vutton grocery bag
[*]a $80.000 Lear Jet


anytime soon 😀
Click to expand...

But they do have cheap Leica's. I think they are called over priced Panasonic P&S's.
 
The optical-mechanical rangefinder coupled with an aesthetically minimalist simplicity in controls and and features, and superb, solid construction ... These are what define a Leica M body to me.

Without the rangefinder, it's not a Leica M body. It may well be a superb camera, but that's a different matter. I'm sure if Leica makes one, it will have many of the same aesthetics as the M in control design, and it will be a fine camera.

(I think Leica did just the right thing with the new M: keep it an M camera and provide the OPTION to use Live View with LCD and EVF when those are the appropriate viewfinder options. It's an expensive solution and not everyone needs or wants it, but isn't it nice that someone is providing these options?)
 
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