Ready to give up on Leica (wishing I wasn't)

[zeezea]

I have received more PMs containing 'thank you for keeping this forum funny' (even from those who originally attacked my post) than I have from those who have been hurt by this sensitive discussion.
Therefore, I believe you may be incorrect.
Woops:bang:

So, who else is through with Leica? (let's get back to the topic)

Thanks for the PM filmfan. As i said in my PM to your PM (!), I also was venting
over my reluctance to log in lately (in view of some recent contentious threads
on the Forum). But that`s not a reason for any of us members to become
enemies. Actually, I think we should all make more use of the PM. It adds
a human touch - and we`re less likely to be testy in our posts .

Regards, and lets get back to the original issue
Al

 

[apconan]

this forum has plenty of more vocal people 'ruining' it.
this thread was a joke to begin with and has taken so many left turns that it has nothing to do with the original post anymore. someone crying that Leica didn't meet their expectations again... guess what? they'll never meet everyone's expectations.

bob

They were reasonable expectations.

What ruined this thread was the Leica fanboys who masturbate to their cameras every night and think that their god in Solms can do no wrong, accusing the OP of lying. Ridiculous.

Hope you're not one of them.

 

[bob338]

They were reasonable expectations.

What ruined this thread was the Leica fanboys who masturbate to their cameras every night and think that their god in Solms can do no wrong, accusing the OP of lying. Ridiculous.

Hope you're not one of them.

i posted early in this thread that i've had nothing but good luck with leica so far, but i don't think that makes me a fanboy.

i think we're not getting the whole story here. was the OP polite and patient or demanding and rude? was the camera bought from a licensed, legit dealer or one of those downtown 'we have everything' type of places? i learned early on that if you walk in somewhere with guns blazing, you're gonna get treated like sh*t. you might get everything you're due, but it'll be a struggle every step of the way. every time i've dealt with leica NJ, i have gone out of my way to be polite and accommodating. and i've gotten everything i've asked for, just not very quickly. and all of us who frequent these forums know this, leica is not quick to respond.

if the OP can't get this resolved by leica, why not contact the dealer? or his credit card company? i know that american express was pretty aggressive with the couple of disputes i've opened on my card.

my .02

bob

 

[Roger Hicks]

They were reasonable expectations.

What ruined this thread was the Leica fanboys who masturbate to their cameras every night and think that their god in Solms can do no wrong, accusing the OP of lying. Ridiculous.

Hope you're not one of them.

Prompted by your exceptionally unsavoury image, I've just re-read the whole thread. Where are these 'Leica fanboys who masturbate to their cameras every night and think that their god in Solms can do no wrong, accusing the OP of lying'?

In my view, certainly, the OP made a wrong decision in not insisting on an immediate replacement -- see my post about my first new Leica lens -- but he has explained why he made that decision, and it probably seemed reasonable at the time; I might have thought the same way myself. I imagine he wishes now that he had demanded a replacement.

But you seem to be using 'fanboy' as a highly specialized insult for anyone who suggests that actually, Leicas are pretty good cameras, and that most people buy them and use them without any problems.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Richard Marks]

The real issue is if one wishes to use '35mm' format is that there really is nohing to touch the best leica glass. We know that and they know that. Unofortunately this can give leica some cause for complaicancy and equally as customers we inevitably compromise. It can make us cross but there really is not a choice. Obviously by publicly declaring ones departure from Leica there may be some satisfaction but ultimately one might be cutting off one's own nose. If a Sony/Nikon/Canon M mount option appeared id grab it but it is not very likely.

I am still cross about the M8 launch and not disclosing about IR filters, and having to wait 9 months to get them. Im also cross about quality control issues in my particular M8 which were dealt with somewhat dismissively by Leica (in my opinion). It certainly has deterred me from plunging into an automatic purchase of an M9. I certainly would have if happy with customer service. But again perhaps I am missing out. Time will tell. Id certainly be interested in an 'early M8 adopters discount thingy' or some concession to those with 3 or more M8 trips to Solms just as some fomr of acknowledgement that they relased a half baked product. (dream on!) But then my M7 is just sooo good.

Best wishes

Richard

 

[sig]

Prompted by your exceptionally unsavoury image, I've just re-read the whole thread. Where are these 'Leica fanboys who masturbate to their cameras every night and think that their god in Solms can do no wrong, accusing the OP of lying'?

In my view, certainly, the OP made a wrong decision in not insisting on an immediate replacement -- see my post about my first new Leica lens -- but he has explained why he made that decision, and it probably seemed reasonable at the time; I might have thought the same way myself. I imagine he wishes now that he had demanded a replacement.

But you seem to be using 'fanboy' as a highly specialized insult for anyone who suggests that actually, Leicas are pretty good cameras, and that most people buy them and use them without any problems.

Cheers,

R.

The thing is that the OP trusted Leica to be a service minded company. Roger, you know they are not, and you would have demanded a replacement straight away. So a lesson to us all would be (based on your advice and the OP's problems), leica's service is horrible, if you have problems demand a replacement, at least if you want to use leica cameras.

 

[Lord Fluff]

Buying an M8 is like buying a porsche boxter or cayman (not a real porsche...)

Another old argument.

The Cayman and Boxster are both very much 'real' Porsches - and really the only people that assert they aren't haven't owned either, and don't tend to know much about Porsche's history (ie they've made a lot of cars in the past that weren't 911's, many of them mid or front engined)

 

[Roger Hicks]

The thing is that the OP trusted Leica to be a service minded company. Roger, you know they are not, and you would have demanded a replacement straight away. So a lesson to us all would be (based on your advice and the OP's problems), leica's service is horrible, if you have problems demand a replacement, at least if you want to use leica cameras.

Quite honestly, I'd do that with any company. Indeed I have done exactly that with other companies. As a result, I don't really know if Leica's service is horrible. I know they tried to weasel out of replacing a lens 30 years ago, but I am reasonably confident that neither Solms nor the UK would do that now - I've no experience of Leica in the USA or France, so cannot speak for them - and I am sure that a straightforward request for an immediate replacement would be honoured.

They really are a pretty small operation, and they're working flat out to produce as many M9s as they can. Mostly as a result of historical accidents, I've almost always used reputable independent repairers on the rare occasions my Leicas have needed repairs. I'm not making excuses for them -- the OP's story just shouldn't have happened, and nor should the story about my Summilux -- but a small company whose products last forever is always going to have a problem with repairs and turnaround time.

Cheers,

R.

 

[popeye]

I just read in another forum that his camera issue has been tended to and should have an M8 directly...

 

[Ben Z]

The real issue is if one wishes to use '35mm' format is that there really is nohing to touch the best leica glass. We know that and they know that.

Richard that may be true but it hasn't stopped most of the world's most-celebrated photographers from using other brands, even though those guys could certainly afford Leica. Especially as prices of Leica glass has risen in recent years far beyond the rate of any other consumer good I purchase, it has certainly made me step back and re-think just how much of my income I want to devote to something almost nobody (other than maybe fellow Leica enthusiasts) seeing my photographs notices or appreciates.

 

[degruyl]

This makes me rationalize buying used rather than new, not that I can afford anything Leica-made new.

Basically, buy proven Leicas used and buy VC lenses new and you'll be OK.

what he said. Buy USED leica products, from someplace with a return policy, and check them immediately upon receipt.

Then, once you are satisfied you can relax into years of happy service.

 

[filmfan]

Another old argument.

The oldest arguments are often times the most accurate.
Cheers fluff-- I like your handle. Made me laugh (in a good way).

-Sam

 

[remphoto]

The thing is that the OP trusted Leica to be a service minded company. Roger, you know they are not, and you would have demanded a replacement straight away. So a lesson to us all would be (based on your advice and the OP's problems), leica's service is horrible, if you have problems demand a replacement, at least if you want to use leica cameras.

My experience with a new M8 was almost identical to the OP's. Neither my dealer nor I had any success in getting a quick replacement or loaner ("none were available, sorry"). I suspect there are those on this forum who are networked with the folks at Leica NJ and get quick service and special favors like loaners or instant replacements. The rest of us schmucks are at the back of the line (or were until we got tired of waiting and went elsewhere).

 

[ernstk]

The one issue they had in the 911 series was the '75-77 models where they mated magnesium to steel, and the studs would pop before 75K miles. The metals didn't expand as expected when heated, and 1/2 of these cars were being delivered to stop and go southern calif. Also, to save $$, proper oil coolers were options.

They learned from this, and the '78 to '83 3.0l SC all aluminum engines became the most bulletproof of the air cooled 911s ever, usually going 250K + before needing a rebuild, if properly maintained. Reliability like an old Toyota.

It was 74-77 and it only affected US cars. The US cars had reactors fitted to reduce emissions and also ran with reduced numbers of blades in the cooling fan, all to keep engine temperatures high and emissions low. This caused undue stress and the stud failure that you mention.

In Europe, there were no issues as there were no reactors and the engines were adequately cooled. I have a 74 Carrera 2.7 with a magnesium crankcase. It has covered 130,000 miles and is used daily on the road, with hard track use too. It has never missed a beat.

Ernst

 

[ROOOO]

I just read in another forum that his camera issue has been tended to and should have an M8 directly...

Indeed, I did receive the camera—my camera—this morning. It appears to be in good shape. I'm not the best at seeing the rangefinder's vertical alignment with my glasses, but I just took a couple sample shots and things seem to be good. I'm going to spend some time writing up feedback and recommendations for Leica, as I am a fan of the company and its products, and I really want to see them succeed. I also used to develop customer retention strategies for a large company whose products I'll bet everyone reading this forum uses.

I also look forward to finally sharing my comments and photos from the
M8 with you all on the forum over the coming months.

In very brief and inadequate response to some of the questions that have come up:

1) I did buy the camera from a very reputable dealer with close ties to Leica. If you know NYC, it's the one that occupies the former space of another well-known Leica specialist. The dealer did a good job in advocating for me. However, I feel like the dealer network can also be a source of confusion when it comes to Leica's customer service. That is, Leica doesn't completely control the relationship with the customer when there's a dealer involved in the service transaction. Therefore, Leica can be unfairly blamed for failings of the dealer and vice-versa.

2) Overall, I do feel like I was patient and fair and escalated the issue in a reasonable way with reasonable cause. However, each person has their own judgements here, so I'm sure some people would have immediately demanded a replacement or a loaner and others would have waited six months for a resolution with no problem.

I don't think my expectations were out of line. My experience gives only a sample size of one, so it's not really fair for me to suggest that it's representative. However, generally, I'll say that Leica won't be able to grow and have as much success as I would hope it has if its products are of a premium quality and price but its service is not. Because the company has had a monopoly over a certain segment of the camera market, such an approach wouldn't do much damage. However, such an inconsistent strategy across its organization is untenable over the long term if it wants to grow.

One company that I think learned this lesson extremely well over the past decade is Apple. The success of the iPod/iPhone/laptops/retail stores forced Apple to realize that lesson. Sure, I still get frustrated with Apple's service from time to time and see other people do the same, but I think that, overall, they've become quite good at customer service. To make a short story long, as Leica introduces new, exciting products—M9! S2! X1!—and grows its customer base, I hope that it doesn't neglect to appropriately grow its investment in its customer service operation.

Apologies if the MBA in me comes through in this post. Again, I appreciate everyone's feedback, even though some of it seems to have gone astray. (I didn't think I would get so many responses!)

 

[Tompas]

What I learned from this thread is that apparently most Leica users drive Porsches...

 

[jan normandale]

I just read in another forum that his camera issue has been tended to and should have an M8 directly...

So how many forums did the OP go into and write about Leica to lever the internet for his personal uses?

Hopefully he'll post in all the forums he wrote about this otherwise a stigma is left attached to the company's name by these residual postings.

Fair's fair.

 

[ROOOO]

So how many forums did the OP go into and write about Leica to lever the internet for his personal uses?

Hopefully he'll post in all the forums he wrote about this otherwise a stigma is left attached to the company's name by these residual postings.

Fair's fair.

I posted here and in one other forum. I've updated both threads to reflect all that's happened to date.

I've written very highly of Leica's products in the past and I evangelize them to my friends, as I'm sure many of you do. I hope to continue to do so, but I also want to foster a productive discussion inside and outside of the company about the role of customer service. I'm not sure that I will, but I hope that I can contribute something to that end with my experience and some of the thoughts and response I'm forming about it.

 

[degruyl]

... I also want to foster a productive discussion inside and outside of the company about the role of customer service. I'm not sure that I will, but I hope that I can contribute something to that end with my experience and some of the thoughts and response I'm forming about it.

Someone from leica should buy a bunch of apple products and use them continuously for a couple of years. As they break, bring them in for warranty service: see how long it takes.

Now that is a company that does customer service (but make sure you make an appointment at the apple store before going there for service).

 

[Richard Marks]

I posted here and in one other forum. I've updated both threads to reflect all that's happened to date.

I've written very highly of Leica's products in the past and I evangelize them to my friends, as I'm sure many of you do. I hope to continue to do so, but I also want to foster a productive discussion inside and outside of the company about the role of customer service. I'm not sure that I will, but I hope that I can contribute something to that end with my experience and some of the thoughts and response I'm forming about it.

I did write to Leica a couple of times with some essentially constructive feedback regarding my M8 experiences. No reply was given on either occasion. Leica UK are not especially polite to speak to either. Unfortunately as I said earlier, Leica do not have any rangefinder competition and we have to like it or lump it. Posting about their poor customer service is not likely to change this. A fall off in sales may do, but if you want a digital rangefinder where else do you go? Interestingly there is strong competition in the SLR market and Leica ditched the R system. I still think the S system will struggle against Hasselblad who have very impressive customer service. For an extra £5,000 on the price of your S2 Leica will upgrade to a 'professional' level of service with immediate turn round of repairs. A bargain for sure!!

Richard