Roger Hicks
Veteran
C-Sonnar.
I've had quite a lot of fast 50s and with the exception of the f/1 Noctilux (not tried the new one yet) the Sonnar wins hands down.
Not on anything objective, but purely on the 'look'.
The extra half stop of the Canon, given its other shortcomings, was irrelevant to me.
The other 'fast standard' I loved (but foolishly sold) was the 5.8cm f/1.4 Nikkor.
Cheers,
R.
I've had quite a lot of fast 50s and with the exception of the f/1 Noctilux (not tried the new one yet) the Sonnar wins hands down.
Not on anything objective, but purely on the 'look'.
The extra half stop of the Canon, given its other shortcomings, was irrelevant to me.
The other 'fast standard' I loved (but foolishly sold) was the 5.8cm f/1.4 Nikkor.
Cheers,
R.
Amedeo's latest adapters will let you focus down to about 0.8m, but you're right about the (very) long focus throw, Keith (I missed that requirement in your original post).
TWoK
Well-known
I'd like to point out that my Amedeo adapter couldn't be more spot on at MFD and f/1.4. It's great to use once and a while, but I couldn't take it as part of a travel kit I don't think. It's pretty darn long with the adapter and all.
f16sunshine
Moderator
Roger is making me feel guilty. I have a Tessina and a 5.8cm F1.4 Nikkor-S. I'll have to get a C-Sonnar to compare with my 1935 LTM Sonnar. The latter is a "mutant", someone had the front element polished and recoated. It lowered the focal length ever-so-slightly, did not work well on the Contax but was perfect when adapted to Leica mount using a J-3 mount. I've converted a dozen or so of these F1.5 Contax Sonnars to LTM.
1935 Sonnar, wide-open at F1.5.
Stopped down a little.
Good reason to get a C-Sonnar. I don't have one... Nikki has been photographed with just about every landmark lens made for 35mm cameras.
There is a reason why Zeiss brought this lens back into production!
1935 Sonnar, wide-open at F1.5.
Stopped down a little.
Good reason to get a C-Sonnar. I don't have one... Nikki has been photographed with just about every landmark lens made for 35mm cameras.
There is a reason why Zeiss brought this lens back into production!
Last edited:
Canon 50/1.4, LTM Nikkor 5cm F1.4, and a really good J-3 all on the Canon 7. I also shot with a Canon 50/1.5 on this test, but the focus was either slightly off, or the lens was not optimized for F1.5. It is now, but I did not do another comparison roll.
All Wide-Open, full-frame followed by tight crop..
Canon 50/1.4:
Nikkor wide-open at F1.4:
1958 J-3 at F1.5, after being shimmed for close-up and wide-open.
I love these threads asking about fast lenses. And I've been playing Missile Command Lately. Almost as fast launching the ABM's at the alien invaders as uploading test pictures. Keith, do you feel like you have incoming?
All Wide-Open, full-frame followed by tight crop..
Canon 50/1.4:
Nikkor wide-open at F1.4:
1958 J-3 at F1.5, after being shimmed for close-up and wide-open.
I love these threads asking about fast lenses. And I've been playing Missile Command Lately. Almost as fast launching the ABM's at the alien invaders as uploading test pictures. Keith, do you feel like you have incoming?
Last edited:
notraces
Bob Smith
I love the Nikkor 50 Millennium / Amedeo adapter combo -- I don't even think of the focus throw - big deal -- and the focus is spot-on -- no need for shims / adjustment - naddah...
As for fast 50's - the Nikkor is great -- but I LOVE my 50 pre-asph summilux -- fantastic lens - fast focus - and wonderful image signature...
As for fast 50's - the Nikkor is great -- but I LOVE my 50 pre-asph summilux -- fantastic lens - fast focus - and wonderful image signature...
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Brian,
Being the amazing source of knowledge on these things that you are ... please explain some basics to me.
I'm sort of leaning towards the C Sonnar ... I love the signature ... the price will be where it needs to be ... the focus throw will be suitable and it will tend to be used on the camera it was likely made for ... the Ikon and occasionally an M body!
I need to know more about this focus shift though and what the advantages and disadvantages of the two optimizations (1.5 and 2.8) will mean when shooting. I need to know which optimization would likely suit the way I generally photograph with a 50mm lens ... I shoot a lot wide open at close range!
Keith- if you are buying this lens for the speed, get it optimized for F1.5. From what I've read on the forum, the shift on this lens is several inches at minimum focus. If you are looking for existing light portraits, etc, this shift would be difficult to work around.
The older Sonnars are not as sharp as this new lens. Maybe the shift is not as evident as the lens are softer, or not has big in magnitude- but by F4 any shift is taken care of by the DOF. I use my lenses at F1.5, F2 and then skip over to F4 when stopping down. With the C-Sonnar optimized for wide-open, it sounds like yo go from F1.5 to F8.
The older Sonnars are not as sharp as this new lens. Maybe the shift is not as evident as the lens are softer, or not has big in magnitude- but by F4 any shift is taken care of by the DOF. I use my lenses at F1.5, F2 and then skip over to F4 when stopping down. With the C-Sonnar optimized for wide-open, it sounds like yo go from F1.5 to F8.
Read some of "Photographic Lenses", by Neblette over coffee.
He states that "Spherical Aberration" should have been called Aperture Aberration. My take on it: Light rays collected across the surface of the lens fall into a point of "best Focus", not an exact focus. Light rays collected at the edges of the lens fall a little bit closer or farther based on "over correction" or "under correction" for spherical aberration of the given optic. Fast lenses are typically Over-corrected, giving the donut shaped Bokeh. As you stop down the lens, you filter out the light rays coming in from the edges. The point of best focus will appear to shift backwards. The exact amount of shift is highly dependent on the overall prescription of the lens. The C-Sonnar sounds like is has a higher amount of focus shift than the older Sonnars that I use, but it could be just because it is sharper and more noticeable. I'll have to get one someday.
I use this to an advantage when shimming J-3's and Zeiss Sonnars for the Leica standard. Optimize for up-close and wide-open. Stop down a little for farther distances, as it shifts the focus back just a little.
He states that "Spherical Aberration" should have been called Aperture Aberration. My take on it: Light rays collected across the surface of the lens fall into a point of "best Focus", not an exact focus. Light rays collected at the edges of the lens fall a little bit closer or farther based on "over correction" or "under correction" for spherical aberration of the given optic. Fast lenses are typically Over-corrected, giving the donut shaped Bokeh. As you stop down the lens, you filter out the light rays coming in from the edges. The point of best focus will appear to shift backwards. The exact amount of shift is highly dependent on the overall prescription of the lens. The C-Sonnar sounds like is has a higher amount of focus shift than the older Sonnars that I use, but it could be just because it is sharper and more noticeable. I'll have to get one someday.
I use this to an advantage when shimming J-3's and Zeiss Sonnars for the Leica standard. Optimize for up-close and wide-open. Stop down a little for farther distances, as it shifts the focus back just a little.
Last edited:
ferider
Veteran
Hi Keith,
the C-Sonnar shift is more noticable than the shift of classic Sonnars, since it's much higher contrast wide open. Classic Sonnars (any that I tried, including Canon, Nikkor and Russian ZK 50/1.[45]), have comparatively low contrast until f1.8 or higher, when they suddenly bite.
The 2.8 optimized ZM lens shifts about 6cm close focus, to the front.
Since you want to shoot it mostly wide open, the 1.5 optimized version might be best. The way you can then think about the shift, is that your focus point, for all other stops, will be at the front limit of the DOF range of the lens.
If you need to correct, you can use the lens DOF scale, or, on your M2/M3, the DOF markers in the rangefinder.
Best,
Roland.
the C-Sonnar shift is more noticable than the shift of classic Sonnars, since it's much higher contrast wide open. Classic Sonnars (any that I tried, including Canon, Nikkor and Russian ZK 50/1.[45]), have comparatively low contrast until f1.8 or higher, when they suddenly bite.
The 2.8 optimized ZM lens shifts about 6cm close focus, to the front.
Since you want to shoot it mostly wide open, the 1.5 optimized version might be best. The way you can then think about the shift, is that your focus point, for all other stops, will be at the front limit of the DOF range of the lens.
If you need to correct, you can use the lens DOF scale, or, on your M2/M3, the DOF markers in the rangefinder.
Best,
Roland.
Last edited:
An original Wartime Sonnar in LTM, Wide-Open at F1.5.
This is probably the Best Sonnar that I've used. Will have to get a C-Sonnar to compare with.
This is probably the Best Sonnar that I've used. Will have to get a C-Sonnar to compare with.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
I think Brian, you have actually improved on the original design with this approach. I find your approach impressive because it is so simple! It's almost obvious and I bet the original manufacturers of the screw mount Sonnars you improve, wish they had thought of it themselves. Someday, I'm going to send you my 1958 J3 to have it optimised.
To Keith: I reckon a Brianized Sonnar would fit your needs, and look cool too!
ferider
Veteran
Nikon did.
mfogiel
Veteran
Keith,
Go through this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51742
I believe, it should probably become a sticky, as the question keeps on popping up frequently.
In my opinion, if you get the f1.5 optimized version, you essentially will have a lens that works only between f1.5 and f2.0. At f 8.0-16 it will be sharp again, but it will be a different lens, it will look more like a Planar.
Go through this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51742
I believe, it should probably become a sticky, as the question keeps on popping up frequently.
In my opinion, if you get the f1.5 optimized version, you essentially will have a lens that works only between f1.5 and f2.0. At f 8.0-16 it will be sharp again, but it will be a different lens, it will look more like a Planar.
Nikon optimized the 5cm f1.4 Nikkor-S for close-up and wide-open work. But the focal length is closer to the Leica focal length standard that the Nikon S-Mount is built to. The lens should remain optimized for F1.4 throughout the range. By F4, the DOF covers the focus error.
Nikkor-S 5cm F1.4, wide-open and close-up.
Nikkor-S 5cm F1.4, wide-open at distance:
Tight Crops of image:
The J-3 and Zeiss Sonnars are built to the Contax (nominal) 52.4mm standard, the focal length is slightly longer than the Leica. I set the lenses for close-up and wide-open, but the error caused by difference in focal length kicks in for distance shots. The Sonnar shift when stopped down effectively pushes the focus back into place again.
Nikkor-S 5cm F1.4, wide-open and close-up.
Nikkor-S 5cm F1.4, wide-open at distance:
Tight Crops of image:
The J-3 and Zeiss Sonnars are built to the Contax (nominal) 52.4mm standard, the focal length is slightly longer than the Leica. I set the lenses for close-up and wide-open, but the error caused by difference in focal length kicks in for distance shots. The Sonnar shift when stopped down effectively pushes the focus back into place again.
Last edited:
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Thanks Roland ... that's pretty much what I wanted to know. I think that fore warned is fore armed and if I understand what a lens is actually going to do I can compensate accordingly. This was the only area that concerned me about the Sonnar and you've explained it well.
Apart from which my 35mm Nokton seems to suffer from focus shift wide open on my M8 and I've learned to deal with that OK!
OK ... so who wants to sell me their 1.5 optimized Sonnar or trade it for a 50mm Hex and a collapsable Summicron?
Last edited:
gavinlg
Veteran
Personally Keith I'd be going the sonnar, just buy one and use it - see what it does in real life usage with you. I had a canon 50mm f1.2L which is notorious on the internet for having brutal focus shifts of all sorts, and I did not once experience any situation where it reared it's head in real life shooting. The lens was an absolute pleasure to use. I've heard people say that about the sonnar too.
In fact I'm actually considering the sonnar myself right now.
In fact I'm actually considering the sonnar myself right now.
pevelg
Well-known
I too am looking for a f1.5 optimized Sonnar. Several have posted that they can use the default f.28 optimized by leaning forward or focusing a tad closer. This concept can of course be transfered to the f1.5 optimization, just in reverse. This way, when at f1.5, the most critical in focus requirements, especially at mfd, you can rely on the rangefinder. When using f2.0-f5.6, you just lean back a little or focus slightly over. You are more likely to get focus here due to increased dof. For this reason I will go with the f1.5 optimized. I think Tony has 4 listed on his site right now, all of which claim to be optimized for f1.5 If I can't find a nice used one by end of this month, I'll just buy from him.
TWoK
Well-known
I think it's absolutely ridiculous to shoot a lens that has that many focus issues. Pevelg, normally KEH carries caps for your Mamiya for cheap!
Last edited: