Big Hairy Bee
barnacker
First of all, what a great forum!
I am ready to pull the trigger on a Leica. I have never used a rangefinder of any kind. I do have a wealth of experience in film SLRs and am currently using digital SLR. Something recently has made me want to use film and print again. I want to purchase a Leica for strictly personal use. A built in meter is not a must. I am looking for used as I am a teacher and new is simply not an option. I plan to shoot available light only.
I see many M2's and M3's for $500-$1000 and M4's for about a grand. What should I look for and what should I avoid?
Thanks in advance,
Harry
I am ready to pull the trigger on a Leica. I have never used a rangefinder of any kind. I do have a wealth of experience in film SLRs and am currently using digital SLR. Something recently has made me want to use film and print again. I want to purchase a Leica for strictly personal use. A built in meter is not a must. I am looking for used as I am a teacher and new is simply not an option. I plan to shoot available light only.
I see many M2's and M3's for $500-$1000 and M4's for about a grand. What should I look for and what should I avoid?
Thanks in advance,
Harry
Paul Jenkin
Well-known
Hi Harry and welcome.
I'm a fellow newbie, so please understand that I'm no expert myself. However, although I've had a Mamiya 7 (little used) I've just bought an M6 with a Summicron-M 35/f2 and a Voigtlander 28/f1.9 (all secondhand).
The M4 seems to get great review and there are tons of M3's kicking around in all sorts of cosmetic condition. Like everything, I suppose, budget will dictate.
For what it's worth, a fully functioning body with a guarantee is all you probably need. Ultimately, it's just a light-tight box with a shutter. However, as the glass makes the most difference, I would suggest paying proportionately more on a newer / better quality lens.
Hope to see some photos as and when.
Best wishes, Paul.
I'm a fellow newbie, so please understand that I'm no expert myself. However, although I've had a Mamiya 7 (little used) I've just bought an M6 with a Summicron-M 35/f2 and a Voigtlander 28/f1.9 (all secondhand).
The M4 seems to get great review and there are tons of M3's kicking around in all sorts of cosmetic condition. Like everything, I suppose, budget will dictate.
For what it's worth, a fully functioning body with a guarantee is all you probably need. Ultimately, it's just a light-tight box with a shutter. However, as the glass makes the most difference, I would suggest paying proportionately more on a newer / better quality lens.
Hope to see some photos as and when.
Best wishes, Paul.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Hi Harry,
Welcome to RFF
Recommended First Leica?? - easy answer - The one that you can afford
What is your favourite focal length? Are you a "wide" guy or more a "telephoto" guy?
M2's offer the nice 35/50/90mm frameline whilst the M3's offer the 50/90/135 framelines.
M4's are apparently the ultimate Leica for mechanical/non-battery rangefinders
So much to choose from - I don't think you could go wrong with any of them - even the barnack Leicas are cool imho.
Dave
Welcome to RFF
Recommended First Leica?? - easy answer - The one that you can afford
What is your favourite focal length? Are you a "wide" guy or more a "telephoto" guy?
M2's offer the nice 35/50/90mm frameline whilst the M3's offer the 50/90/135 framelines.
M4's are apparently the ultimate Leica for mechanical/non-battery rangefinders
So much to choose from - I don't think you could go wrong with any of them - even the barnack Leicas are cool imho.
Dave
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
There is a somewhat similar thread running here right now.
To me, the first major break is: meter, or no? If yes, the leading choice is an M6. They are plentiful, are built on the classic M chassis, can be found with some frequency in "user" condition, and aren't subject to a variety of the foibles presented by the M5 (which I love) or the CL (which I also love). Used prices probably start around $800, though. The M5 is no cheaper, sometimes more expensive, due to collector pressure, and unless modified needs some kind of workaround to deal with the lack of availability of the mercury cells it was designed for (as does the CL). Not hard, not terribly expensive, but a factor perhaps. Neither the M5 nor the CL are built on the classic M chassis, either, and though their exposure meters are excellent they are not getting younger. Be cautious about early M6s (marked "Ernst Leitz Wetzlar GmbH" on the top plate) because unless repaired the metering circuit can fail, which is an expensive fix. The M6TTL and M7 are probably out of your price range.
Non-metered bodies. Sort first by intended lens usage. M3 has the best finder, if you don't want to use 35mm or 28mm lenses. The M2 covers 35, 50 and 90mm. Both load more slowly than the M4 and later bodies, and also rewind with a (slower) knob rather than the (more fragile but faster) fold-out crank. The M4 adds a 135mm frameline (tiny). The M4-P and later add a 28mm frameline (almost at the borders of the viewfinder) and a 75mm frameline (hard in my opinion to pick out from the 50mm lines but I think I'm a minority of 1 on that).
Sort by perceived build quality and place of manufacture. Germany is always good, Canada is always bad, except that Germany following Canada is not good either, unless it's an MP. Huh? Ehhm, probably nonsense? They're all great cameras. The number of electrons consumed in that debate is beyond counting. My recommendation: forget it as an issue. Buy by feature and price.
Remember that almost all of these are getting older. Even M6s can be more than 20 years old at this point. Budget a CLA. Buy with return privileges and, if from a dealer, with a warranty.
There are so many different opinions on your question, most of which are valid. I say: figure out what viewfinder you want, find one in your price range, load it up and get out and go shooting and forget the internet debate about nuances that are mostly in our minds.
For a summary of the models: http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm
For a "checklist" on buying used: http://www.cameraquest.com/leicamchecklist.htm
To me, the first major break is: meter, or no? If yes, the leading choice is an M6. They are plentiful, are built on the classic M chassis, can be found with some frequency in "user" condition, and aren't subject to a variety of the foibles presented by the M5 (which I love) or the CL (which I also love). Used prices probably start around $800, though. The M5 is no cheaper, sometimes more expensive, due to collector pressure, and unless modified needs some kind of workaround to deal with the lack of availability of the mercury cells it was designed for (as does the CL). Not hard, not terribly expensive, but a factor perhaps. Neither the M5 nor the CL are built on the classic M chassis, either, and though their exposure meters are excellent they are not getting younger. Be cautious about early M6s (marked "Ernst Leitz Wetzlar GmbH" on the top plate) because unless repaired the metering circuit can fail, which is an expensive fix. The M6TTL and M7 are probably out of your price range.
Non-metered bodies. Sort first by intended lens usage. M3 has the best finder, if you don't want to use 35mm or 28mm lenses. The M2 covers 35, 50 and 90mm. Both load more slowly than the M4 and later bodies, and also rewind with a (slower) knob rather than the (more fragile but faster) fold-out crank. The M4 adds a 135mm frameline (tiny). The M4-P and later add a 28mm frameline (almost at the borders of the viewfinder) and a 75mm frameline (hard in my opinion to pick out from the 50mm lines but I think I'm a minority of 1 on that).
Sort by perceived build quality and place of manufacture. Germany is always good, Canada is always bad, except that Germany following Canada is not good either, unless it's an MP. Huh? Ehhm, probably nonsense? They're all great cameras. The number of electrons consumed in that debate is beyond counting. My recommendation: forget it as an issue. Buy by feature and price.
Remember that almost all of these are getting older. Even M6s can be more than 20 years old at this point. Budget a CLA. Buy with return privileges and, if from a dealer, with a warranty.
There are so many different opinions on your question, most of which are valid. I say: figure out what viewfinder you want, find one in your price range, load it up and get out and go shooting and forget the internet debate about nuances that are mostly in our minds.
For a summary of the models: http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm
For a "checklist" on buying used: http://www.cameraquest.com/leicamchecklist.htm
thomasw_
Well-known
I recommend getting a 50mm or 35mm lens and sticking with it for a year or two exclusively. Also I recommend using a small hand held meter like a gossen digisix for a year or two with a non-metered, all mechanical body. You will get to know what is going on with your exposures and compositions much faster with fewer variables initially. Accordingly get the best deal you can on a M2 if you choose the 35 FL or a M3 if you choose the 50 FL; they will be your least expensive options.
Good cheer, thomas
Good cheer, thomas
Didier
"Deed"
I'd go with a M6 rather than a M2, M3 or M4. The inbuilt meter makes a huge difference in my humble opinion. 500$ M's are mostly not CLA'd and if you're lucky you find a working M6 below $1.2k
Add a 40/1.4 Voigtländer Nokton and most light will be available.
Good luck
Didier
Add a 40/1.4 Voigtländer Nokton and most light will be available.
Good luck
Didier
I've had two M6s and find that the LEDs in the finder are distracting. Move the camera ever so slightly, and suddenly it appears the exposure is off again...adjust aperture/adjust shutter, miss the shot...maybe it's just me, but when the diodes aren't lit for proper exposure, I want to fiddle to get them exactly right. Same thing when I had my Nikon FM...
This is why I prefer the non-metered Leicas and an incident meter.
My favorite viewfinder is the M3, and if you want to use a 28 or 35mm lens on it, no problem; pick up one of the Voigtlander mini-finders (very tiny with both 28 & 35mm framelines.) This way you retain the high focusing accuracy of the M3 but can still use wider lenses.
M4s and up do load faster if that's important to you. It isn't to me, I can load the M3 pretty fast, but it does take a few rolls to get the procedure down.
This is why I prefer the non-metered Leicas and an incident meter.
My favorite viewfinder is the M3, and if you want to use a 28 or 35mm lens on it, no problem; pick up one of the Voigtlander mini-finders (very tiny with both 28 & 35mm framelines.) This way you retain the high focusing accuracy of the M3 but can still use wider lenses.
M4s and up do load faster if that's important to you. It isn't to me, I can load the M3 pretty fast, but it does take a few rolls to get the procedure down.
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
Possibly the best combination of flexibility and cost will be an M2.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
There is a quite good looking M2 in the classifieds still at $500. I can't believe I haven't bought it as a backup!
Graybeard
Longtime IIIf User
I recommend a M3 with a 50mm lens - a late model rigid Summicron or a Konica Hexanon 50mm/f2. The Voigtlander 50mm/f1.5 would be a second choice only because of its size.
Budget the $100 to have Youxin CLA the camera - nothing worse than having to fight your equipment if the camera acts up. Budget another $250 for 100 rolls of Neopan 400 at Imageolgists (in LA). Buy a meter if you are more comfortable with one - otherwise read all of the threads here and elsewhere about Sunny 16 (Sunny 11 where I live - in italy, where I've just recently been, it really is Sunny 16) and indoor exposure estimation.
When the Neopan is gone you will be both very familiar and very pleased with this camera.
The important thing is to acquire a camera then get out and use it.
Budget the $100 to have Youxin CLA the camera - nothing worse than having to fight your equipment if the camera acts up. Budget another $250 for 100 rolls of Neopan 400 at Imageolgists (in LA). Buy a meter if you are more comfortable with one - otherwise read all of the threads here and elsewhere about Sunny 16 (Sunny 11 where I live - in italy, where I've just recently been, it really is Sunny 16) and indoor exposure estimation.
When the Neopan is gone you will be both very familiar and very pleased with this camera.
The important thing is to acquire a camera then get out and use it.
Krosya
Konicaze
If you never used a RF camera - get a Bessa. Leicas are great, but for a beginner Bessa may be better. Easier to load film. Good RF and under warranty. And if after a while of using Bessa you still like RF cameras - than Leica may be a good upgrade.
Big Hairy Bee
barnacker
Thank you for all the replies. I would like to limit myself to a single lens, most likely 50mm. The Bessas are tempting for an underpaid teacher but I worry about their longevity and ability to be repaired and adjusted in the future. I will keep my eyes open for deals in the Phoenix area...
foto_fool
Well-known
Welcome to the forum! Are you only interested in an M-mount? They are a little harder to use, but the LTM bodies are just a joy IMHO. You could pick up a IIIf with a recent CLA for about $300 and then buy a Summarit for about $250 (or even a J-3 for about $90) and have the complete package for less than the M-mount body alone.
- John
- John
aizan
Veteran
i started with an m2, but having to use a handheld meter was a drag. i should have gotten at least an m6. ymmv.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
I would heartily recommend for you an M6 (classic) with a 50mm lens. The best bang for your buck on the lens choice would probably be the Zeiss (ZM) Planar 50mm f/2.
The M6 has the advantage (compared with an earlier M) of a built-in meter and the 50mm Planar is less new than you could reasonably find a used 50mm Summicron and the Planar is just as good as to its optical performance (compared to any 50mm Summicron).
With the purchase of an M6 you should factor in the cost of a CLA.
The M6 has the advantage (compared with an earlier M) of a built-in meter and the 50mm Planar is less new than you could reasonably find a used 50mm Summicron and the Planar is just as good as to its optical performance (compared to any 50mm Summicron).
With the purchase of an M6 you should factor in the cost of a CLA.
otaku
Established
I've played with leica's digital cameras for the last year and finally bought a minilux P&S and am now preparing to take the leap and go with an M2 (partly because I like that its old and partly cause its one of the cheaper buys I can find)
akptc
Shoot first, think later
Harry, if you live closer to the west side of Phx, you can test the waters with my R3A or the M4P, with the CV 50/1.5 if you'd like, I am not using them at the moment. I won't need a security deposit, (well, maybe some DNA or something... )
)
aizan
Veteran
one thing i'm not so hot on about getting a classic leica and giving it a cla is that if you decide to sell it later, you won't recoup the cost of the cla. if funds are tight, it could make a difference.
Bingley
Veteran
Welcome, Harry!
With one simple question -- which Leica should I get? -- you have summoned a significant number of the RFF gods in less than a 24 hour period. The FORCE is w/ you, young Skywalker. Go forth, purchase, and sin no more.
With one simple question -- which Leica should I get? -- you have summoned a significant number of the RFF gods in less than a 24 hour period. The FORCE is w/ you, young Skywalker. Go forth, purchase, and sin no more.
W
wlewisiii
Guest
1) Have you considered the Zeiss Ikon with the 50/2 Planar lens? 99% of a Leica for much less cost.
2) Otherwise think about picking up a Bessa, preferably a used R, and use it for a year or so to be sure you like the RF experiance. It is drastically different from any SLR you have ever used. Get a good lens - the ZM Planar at one end, a good Jupiter 8 at the cheap end - and get to know how RF shooting works for you.
3) http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm - Mr. Gandy's guide to the M cameras
4) http://www.cameraquest.com/leicamchecklist.htm - his USED Leica M Buyer's Check List
RF's really are different. Some of us like both RFs & SLRs. Others only like one or the other. While a Leica will hold most of it's value, it's still a pain to tie up that much of your resources if you come to the conclusion that it really isn't for you. Kinda like all the 50-somethings I see with big low milage Harleys for sale because they hadn't rode a bike before...
Hope this helps,
William
2) Otherwise think about picking up a Bessa, preferably a used R, and use it for a year or so to be sure you like the RF experiance. It is drastically different from any SLR you have ever used. Get a good lens - the ZM Planar at one end, a good Jupiter 8 at the cheap end - and get to know how RF shooting works for you.
3) http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm - Mr. Gandy's guide to the M cameras
4) http://www.cameraquest.com/leicamchecklist.htm - his USED Leica M Buyer's Check List
RF's really are different. Some of us like both RFs & SLRs. Others only like one or the other. While a Leica will hold most of it's value, it's still a pain to tie up that much of your resources if you come to the conclusion that it really isn't for you. Kinda like all the 50-somethings I see with big low milage Harleys for sale because they hadn't rode a bike before...
Hope this helps,
William