Huss
Veteran
Email from Reflex:
A lot of news this time around...
But let's start with the question that will be on most people's minds; How is production going and will the camera ship on time? The honest answer is that while a lot of work has been done and progress is made on a daily basis, shipping as was originally planned for the end of August is now not realistic. We are still aiming for Photokina in September to present the camera, but in these past few weeks it has become apparent to us that the camera will not ship before end 2018. We are aware that for some this will come as a disappointment, but hopefully after reading the following, the added value on which this decision is based will seem clear.
DFM, Sourcing and Economy of Scales: As mentioned in previous updates, Design For Manufacturing is where we had our biggest learning curve as a hardware startup. What makes this specific case more challenging is that there are not many specialist manufacturers around and since the product is a combination of optical, mechanical and electronically parts, it was not easy to find the right contract manufacturing partners. Additionally because of the relatively small production run, parts sourcing is more difficult because of minimum quantity orders.
Solution: As a solution, we have decided to find long term partners who are willing to learn and invest. However we also need the economy of scales to kick in for certain components in order to keep the production cost acceptable. This can be done by clustering contract orders for products that share a large portion of components. With this in mind, we have been advancing design and pre-production of the two other key products in the Reflex Ecosystem...
Film Processor: Electronics, sensors and automation have come a long way since the 90's and there is definitely room for a practical and affordable personal mini-lab. We are working on a fully automatic desktop-size developer. The ReflexLab does C41, E6 and Black and White and takes any film format from 110 up to 5x7"
Estimated retail price will be under £500
Lens-Based Scanner: Again a product with great room for an update from both flatbed to dedicated film scanners, be it in scanning speed, resolution or software. The ReflexScan can do 110 film up to 5x7" size negatives and has a small footprint.
Estimated retail price will be around £200
Field Notes and Metadata: The central Reflex app connects these 3 key products (this includes Reflex I) and syncs both data and metadata, as well as communicating film developing and scanning presets.
Prime Lens: A first in a line of three fast aperture manual prime lenses. A Sony E-Mount version will also be released.
Estimated retail price will be under £250
All products will be presented in 2018 and there will be prototypes of the Reflex I, the ReflexScan and prime lens at our stand at Photokina in September (2018).
So while we regret to have to push back the camera launch and shipping dates, we hope the decision to do so is understandable.
Meanwhile we will keep building the Reflex brand with quality photography products as we continue to work on the camera.
As always, thank you for the continued support and for more in-between stories, follow us on @shotonreflex Instagram Story Updates!
Team Reflex
A lot of news this time around...
But let's start with the question that will be on most people's minds; How is production going and will the camera ship on time? The honest answer is that while a lot of work has been done and progress is made on a daily basis, shipping as was originally planned for the end of August is now not realistic. We are still aiming for Photokina in September to present the camera, but in these past few weeks it has become apparent to us that the camera will not ship before end 2018. We are aware that for some this will come as a disappointment, but hopefully after reading the following, the added value on which this decision is based will seem clear.
DFM, Sourcing and Economy of Scales: As mentioned in previous updates, Design For Manufacturing is where we had our biggest learning curve as a hardware startup. What makes this specific case more challenging is that there are not many specialist manufacturers around and since the product is a combination of optical, mechanical and electronically parts, it was not easy to find the right contract manufacturing partners. Additionally because of the relatively small production run, parts sourcing is more difficult because of minimum quantity orders.
Solution: As a solution, we have decided to find long term partners who are willing to learn and invest. However we also need the economy of scales to kick in for certain components in order to keep the production cost acceptable. This can be done by clustering contract orders for products that share a large portion of components. With this in mind, we have been advancing design and pre-production of the two other key products in the Reflex Ecosystem...
Film Processor: Electronics, sensors and automation have come a long way since the 90's and there is definitely room for a practical and affordable personal mini-lab. We are working on a fully automatic desktop-size developer. The ReflexLab does C41, E6 and Black and White and takes any film format from 110 up to 5x7"
Estimated retail price will be under £500
Lens-Based Scanner: Again a product with great room for an update from both flatbed to dedicated film scanners, be it in scanning speed, resolution or software. The ReflexScan can do 110 film up to 5x7" size negatives and has a small footprint.
Estimated retail price will be around £200
Field Notes and Metadata: The central Reflex app connects these 3 key products (this includes Reflex I) and syncs both data and metadata, as well as communicating film developing and scanning presets.
Prime Lens: A first in a line of three fast aperture manual prime lenses. A Sony E-Mount version will also be released.
Estimated retail price will be under £250
All products will be presented in 2018 and there will be prototypes of the Reflex I, the ReflexScan and prime lens at our stand at Photokina in September (2018).
So while we regret to have to push back the camera launch and shipping dates, we hope the decision to do so is understandable.
Meanwhile we will keep building the Reflex brand with quality photography products as we continue to work on the camera.
As always, thank you for the continued support and for more in-between stories, follow us on @shotonreflex Instagram Story Updates!
Team Reflex
Huss
Veteran
Well, the ReflexLab sounds interesting.
Skiff
Well-known
At first yes, but I think we have to be realistic:
1. We have excellent semi-automatic home processor solutions made new by JOBO.
https://www.jobo.com/?ecms_lang=EN
Trustworthy design since decades. The two current models are improved and the best models ever made in this line-up.
E6, C41, BW negative and positive, RA-4, all is possible with these processors. Also developing several films in one batch.
Prices start at 1190€.
2. A fully automatic processor is offered by German Lukas Fritz with his Filmomat:
https://www.filmomat.eu/?lang=en
Very good processor, but with two main disadvantages:
1. With E6 only the Tetenal 3-bath process is possible (not the original 6-bath process).
2. Very small tanks, so very little film in one batch (much less compared to JOBO).
Price: 3.500€
Osiris failed with their cheap fully automatic processor. It was crap (a friend of mine had one). It doesn't work properly.
Therefore:
I doubt that a quality film processor is possible at only 500 pounds as Reflex has announced it.
Pioneer
Veteran
Very ambitious. Hard to produce at target cost, similar to the Reflex SLR.
Easy to write e-mails though.
Easy to write e-mails though.
Huss
Veteran
First off, I'm a backer. But I'm getting this sinking feeling.
It seems that their attentions are now getting diverted by these other products in order to raise capital (I guess) for the camera.
If I knew back then what I know now.. ahh to be young and naive! Now I'm just naive..
It seems that their attentions are now getting diverted by these other products in order to raise capital (I guess) for the camera.
If I knew back then what I know now.. ahh to be young and naive! Now I'm just naive..
oftheherd
Veteran
Don't I know the feeling! But as intriguing as it all sounds, I am glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. If it all works out however, I may jump later.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
Well, the ReflexLab thing might be ambitious (and not work out to be a decent product), but I'm hoping it is a good, working product. The JOBO is just a little spendy for me, and I could benefit from more automation in film processing.
Therefore, I want to thank Huss for being a backer. It wouldn't even be an ambitious dream right now if it weren't for the backers.
Therefore, I want to thank Huss for being a backer. It wouldn't even be an ambitious dream right now if it weren't for the backers.
Huss
Veteran
Well this is unexpected - an update and it seems that this project is not dead!...
Over the summer a lot of work has gone into moving the Reflex I closer to it's production deadline and while we continued to develop the new shutter, other parts of the camera kept evolving as well...
Due to an entirely new shutter unit, a chassis redesign, adding a more powerful processor and battery, upgraded controls, new winding mechanism, new dark slide design and some aesthetic and ergonomic improvements, we can no longer speak about the model we presented back in October of 2017.
Add to this an aperture controlled ARi Plate and we have a model II.Flight Forward
With this we're gearing up for a fresh start and have informed our manufacturing partners to start tooling up for the new model instead. Full specs will follow soon. The Reflex II will come in both black powder coating and metallic.
Pre-Production Units
A series of 75 pre-production units will be produced ahead of principal manufacturing and sent out to a selection of camera testers ranging from professionals to hobbyists.
While we received more than hundred requests in the testers program, we want to allocate a minimum of 25 units to our Kickstarter backers. To anybody who is an actual camera backer, we will contact you in the next month to see who's interested.
PhotoPlus, Oct 24-26, New York
Based on our success rate in this department, we need to be careful with promises and dates, but we will be present at the PhotoPlus NY, October 24-26 in some form or way. The working scenario is that we bring the Reflex model II and 40mm lens.
Next...
In the weeks to follow we will be working hard to make this a reality as we have continuously done so, but we also understand we have lost the trust and patience of some of the backers. This is only normal as we are now 1 year past our original shipping date.
The only thing we can say here is that we are dedicated to make it happen. Otherwise we would not have persisted this long.
So to all of our backers, we can only say thank you and we are really doing all we can as not to disappoint you.
Team Reflex
Over the summer a lot of work has gone into moving the Reflex I closer to it's production deadline and while we continued to develop the new shutter, other parts of the camera kept evolving as well...
Due to an entirely new shutter unit, a chassis redesign, adding a more powerful processor and battery, upgraded controls, new winding mechanism, new dark slide design and some aesthetic and ergonomic improvements, we can no longer speak about the model we presented back in October of 2017.
Add to this an aperture controlled ARi Plate and we have a model II.Flight Forward
With this we're gearing up for a fresh start and have informed our manufacturing partners to start tooling up for the new model instead. Full specs will follow soon. The Reflex II will come in both black powder coating and metallic.
Pre-Production Units
A series of 75 pre-production units will be produced ahead of principal manufacturing and sent out to a selection of camera testers ranging from professionals to hobbyists.
While we received more than hundred requests in the testers program, we want to allocate a minimum of 25 units to our Kickstarter backers. To anybody who is an actual camera backer, we will contact you in the next month to see who's interested.
PhotoPlus, Oct 24-26, New York
Based on our success rate in this department, we need to be careful with promises and dates, but we will be present at the PhotoPlus NY, October 24-26 in some form or way. The working scenario is that we bring the Reflex model II and 40mm lens.
Next...
In the weeks to follow we will be working hard to make this a reality as we have continuously done so, but we also understand we have lost the trust and patience of some of the backers. This is only normal as we are now 1 year past our original shipping date.
The only thing we can say here is that we are dedicated to make it happen. Otherwise we would not have persisted this long.
So to all of our backers, we can only say thank you and we are really doing all we can as not to disappoint you.
Team Reflex
randy stewart
Established
Reflex ???
Reflex ???
Having read though the original Kickstarter proposal back at the beginning, I thought the economics of the project were ridiculous. The interim years have done nothing to change my mind. When they reach a dead end on the camera, they start promising other products at performance and price which they will never achieve. Two years ago, they were going to raid the money guys in Silicon Valley to pull their chips out of the fire. I guess that didn't go so well - big surprise. What I cannot figure out is why they do not just declare that having got and consumed the KS funding, the jig is up. Do they think there are more suckers out there who will plunge into another KS project for them?
Reflex ???
Having read though the original Kickstarter proposal back at the beginning, I thought the economics of the project were ridiculous. The interim years have done nothing to change my mind. When they reach a dead end on the camera, they start promising other products at performance and price which they will never achieve. Two years ago, they were going to raid the money guys in Silicon Valley to pull their chips out of the fire. I guess that didn't go so well - big surprise. What I cannot figure out is why they do not just declare that having got and consumed the KS funding, the jig is up. Do they think there are more suckers out there who will plunge into another KS project for them?
Sustich
Established
Does anyone remember the KONOST rangefinder that was supposed to be an alternative to the digital Ms? Last update from him is nearly three years ago. At least he didn't fleece anyone through a KS or other crowdfunding platform. http://konost.com
zuiko85
Veteran
This baby was so underfunded it’s just silly.
Look, if you you want to make a new 35mm reflex for 2020 don’t try to reinvent the wheel.
Obtain several Ricoh KR-5’s, tear them down, copy them, add a few features, like;
DOF preview
1/1000 top speed
Interchangeable finders
Interchangeable focusing screens
The PK mount is ok, lots of useable glass. Maybe offer in a Nikon F mount too.
Probably can’t make it cheap enough to sell body for $200....but it would ok to try,
and then go to $300, body only.
All you would need is maybe .8 million $ to get started on prototypes.
Look, if you you want to make a new 35mm reflex for 2020 don’t try to reinvent the wheel.
Obtain several Ricoh KR-5’s, tear them down, copy them, add a few features, like;
DOF preview
1/1000 top speed
Interchangeable finders
Interchangeable focusing screens
The PK mount is ok, lots of useable glass. Maybe offer in a Nikon F mount too.
Probably can’t make it cheap enough to sell body for $200....but it would ok to try,
and then go to $300, body only.
All you would need is maybe .8 million $ to get started on prototypes.
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
This was one I dismissed from the get go, mostly because it featured a lot of pointless complexity that would be impossible for them to produce at the price they were talking about.
I didn't know they even met their kickstarter goal.
I didn't know they even met their kickstarter goal.
Huss
Veteran
Well they claim that they will be sending out a batch of kameras to testers in the field.
I'll let you know how it goes if I get one..
;p
I'll let you know how it goes if I get one..
;p
Uncle Bill
Well-known
Bingo! I thought Reflex was way out in the deep end with the features they wanted to pack in that camera. What they should have done is revrese engineer an old 1970s Chinon or even a K1000 (the design must public domain by now) with an M-42 or K mount with decent centre weighted metering to start and go from there with different lens mounts.
Huss
Veteran
Thing is they are still working at it, and are promising tosend out test kameras soon.
If it was just a fly by night operation they could have just packed it in a long time ago and thanked the supporters/donors/suckers for the cash.
If it was just a fly by night operation they could have just packed it in a long time ago and thanked the supporters/donors/suckers for the cash.
Huss
Veteran
Why? You can buy cameras like that all day long on the used market. They are going for something different that will give peeps a reason to buy one.
Well, that was the idea at least
farlymac
PF McFarland
I would think that if you want to build confidence in your product/company, you produce what you promised as close to the stated date as possible. Then you can go back and redesign the camera for the next build cycle. The fact they feel it necessary to completely overhaul the original design doesn't bode well.
PF
PF
Scottboarding
Established
I've made it a rule for myself never to give money to a Kickstarter campaign and this is why. Over a year past the expected ship date, but don't worry because they've come up with more non-existent products! Also it's over a year late because they decided to just start over a make a Mk2 even though there wasn't ever really an original. I can see them coming out with a halfway decent lens for Sony E Mount, but I really don't think the camera is going to happen.
CMur12
Veteran
On the other hand, the fact that they have reworked much of the camera could be evidence of commitment to bringing out a good product. They may have realized after getting into the project that the result would not be satisfactory and they didn't want to send their backers a product that was crap.
We won't know until the product comes out or until they actually admit defeat. Kickstarter is for amateurs that have a good idea and hope to bring it to market. If we back such a project, it's unrealistic to expect the same results we would from a large company with design, professional R&D, and manufacturing experience.
Huss is committed, so he might as well give these guys the benefit of the doubt. There's no point in accepting nothing before one has to.
By the way, this thread is sounding like Ted Striker on Kodak. He, too, has reason to be skeptical, but people get tired of the negativity.
- Murray
We won't know until the product comes out or until they actually admit defeat. Kickstarter is for amateurs that have a good idea and hope to bring it to market. If we back such a project, it's unrealistic to expect the same results we would from a large company with design, professional R&D, and manufacturing experience.
Huss is committed, so he might as well give these guys the benefit of the doubt. There's no point in accepting nothing before one has to.
By the way, this thread is sounding like Ted Striker on Kodak. He, too, has reason to be skeptical, but people get tired of the negativity.
- Murray
Huss
Veteran
I actually resigned myself to believe that my backing $$ was long gone a long time ago.
The glimmer of hope is that these peeps are still at it, still trying whereas most would have thrown in the towel a long time ago.
I did not expect this news, that they were still trying. So, here's hoping that this Motley Crue (!) of dreamers will actually succeed.
Because c'mon, who doesn't want to see this lump actually make it to production?
The glimmer of hope is that these peeps are still at it, still trying whereas most would have thrown in the towel a long time ago.
I did not expect this news, that they were still trying. So, here's hoping that this Motley Crue (!) of dreamers will actually succeed.
Because c'mon, who doesn't want to see this lump actually make it to production?