Reid review 4- IR

[jaapv]

Very interesting. An apology for missing the IR issue- kudo's Sean, it takes a big guy etc - but more importantly comparison shots with and without filter. Quite apart from the "Leica should have" discussion -there are plenty of threads for that-, the comparison shots make a strong case to me to use the camera as it is with added filter, especially as it gives more versatilty in black and white shooting. And the profiles still need to be rewritten....

 

[summilux]

his 4th review shows epson's RD-1 has that nasty purple cast too, and no one here has expressed any indigation on Epson as they did to Leica.

it seems that rangefinder camera can't afford to have a thick IR filter glass as in the case of DSLR, when Leica said that they are not comfortable producing a digital M, there might be an element of truth in it.

the leica crowd of today is really no better than the Paris mob during the French revolution.

 

[Grober]

his 4th review shows epson's RD-1 has that nasty purple cast too, and no one here has expressed any indigation on Epson as they did to Leica.

the leica crowd of today is really no better than the Paris mob during the French revolution.

The way Epson has effectively disowned and ignored the RD-1 community there's no one there to complain to anyway.

-g

 

[Avotius]

you know whats really funny about all this? My canon 20D has a little purple sometimes too (although not as much as the leica for sure) and horrible banding and this and that, yet the stink over the leica is so massive and the stink over the 20D just fizzled out after a few days, wonder what will be of the leica in 6 months...

 

[AShearer]

you know whats really funny about all this? My canon 20D has a little purple sometimes too (although not as much as the leica for sure) and horrible banding and this and that, yet the stink over the leica is so massive and the stink over the 20D just fizzled out after a few days, wonder what will be of the leica in 6 months...

That's the first time I've heard anybody admit anything was ever wrong with a Canon

Is that, partly why the 30 D came out?

 

[Dale Cook]

It's the cover-up and really poor response from Leica that has everyone up in arms. Like most situations, it's not the mistake, but how you respond to it.

 

[rxmd]

It's the cover-up and really poor response from Leica that has everyone up in arms.

I guess there are four categories of people who comment on the M8 issue:

1. People who have an M8 and are experiencing first-hand problems. (This is the only category truly affected, and it's probably also the smallest one.)
2. People who have high expectations of the M8, though not necessarily intending to buy one, and who were waiting for a disappointment to happen. These people basically ran most of the M8 discussions before the M8 came out, and now there is a nice opportunity to continue discussing and to voice one's discontent, even though most of these people aren't really affected at all. These people have a certain moral certainty that Leica is somehow the underdog that keeps up the spirit of true photography and German craftsmanship by doing everything right, and now they are bothered both about Leica managed to put out a flawed product and how parts of Leica's response initially weren't up to the standard of the image of Leica that these people keep in their heads. This is probably by far the largest category.
3. People who occasionally like to speak about what Leica is doing wrong and who now jump to the opportunity. To my shame, I must admit that this includes me, partly because I'm privately surrounded by people who increasingly got on my nerves with their hallelujahs about how Leica is always right.
4. People who don't have an M8 and don't intend to buy one for whatever reason, but who are up in Schadenfreude because others have dumped thousands of US-$ on a flawed device.

Philipp

 

[sgy1962]

I guess there are four categories of people who comment on the M8 issue:

1. People who have an M8 and are experiencing first-hand problems. (This is the only category truly affected, and it's probably also the smallest one.)
2. People who have high expectations of the M8, though not necessarily intending to buy one, and who were waiting for a disappointment to happen. These people basically ran most of the M8 discussions before the M8 came out, and now there is a nice opportunity to continue discussing and to voice one's discontent, even though most of these people aren't really affected at all. These people have a certain moral certainty that Leica is somehow the underdog that keeps up the spirit of true photography and German craftsmanship by doing everything right, and now they are bothered both about Leica managed to put out a flawed product and how parts of Leica's response initially weren't up to the standard of the image of Leica that these people keep in their heads. This is probably by far the largest category.
3. People who occasionally like to speak about what Leica is doing wrong and who now jump to the opportunity. To my shame, I must admit that this includes me, partly because I'm privately surrounded by people who increasingly got on my nerves with their hallelujahs about how Leica is always right.
4. People who don't have an M8 and don't intend to buy one for whatever reason, but who are up in Schadenfreude because others have dumped thousands of US-$ on a flawed device.

Philipp

This is just garbage. You don't know the subjective mind frame of the posters.

This uproar about the posters somehow being at fault for expressing disappointment is garbage too. If there were no basis to complain, then there would be little. Look to the camera and its problems for the genesis of its problems. And look to how Leica handled the situation and appaarently withheld information. Don't blame the consumer when they've done nothing wrong.

 

[Plasmat]

It's indicative of an "internet mentality" that people react so crazily and vehemently.

1) Leica releases a first run of a brand new digital camera which is a first for them. It's wonderful to be able to use Leica lenses on a Leica product in the digital realm.

2) The camera has some bugs, VERY common to most first runs of a new high tech product.

3) The problems are discovered by early adopters.

4) Leica acknowledges the bugs, announces a temporary workaround, such as filters, and states that it will work on fixing the problems.

5) Most owners are satisfied, and beautiful images continue to be posted online, in great quantities.

In the meantime, the screeching, moaning, recriminations, accusations of "cover ups" reach an insane fever pitch.

Anyone who follows these things is immediately reminded of similar wildly ignorant feeding frenzies, like the Nikon D200 "banding" issues, in which thousands of people who never even owned the camera bashed Nikon online, posted photos of high ISO photos shot directly into lightbulbs, etc etc. Befuddled newcomers found "banding" everywhere, didn't even know what "banding" was.

It's as if people are determined to put firms out of business in their gleeful, self-righteous demand for "perfection" where it can't exist.

Sure, I would like a "perfect", full frame Leica M instrument, but it can't be built at this point in time with existing technology.

Every technological design is a trade-off of features vs cost and reality.

If you don't like the camera, don't buy it. Stop shrieking like bunch of spoiled bored babies or a tribe of apes. Really, it's boring to hear every single disgruntled doofus weigh in with another cloned "opinion" on the matter. Monkey-see Monkey-do.



* Conspiracy Theorists thrive on the internet. One is only a few clicks away from the most insane "conspiracy theories" ever conceived. My take is that Leica is at worst only guilty of perhaps not fully communicating with potential customers before the sale. The best case scenerio, in my opinion, would have consisted of Leica posting a "white paper" on their design theory when the camera went on sale. This would have explained the engineering compromises, such as strength of the IR filtering etc, beforehand, so that people would be aware before they purchased. But I see no great harm done. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy a Leica. Unhappy owners can return them. It's not a life and death matter, it's a camera we're talking about. If I have to stick an IR filter on my 1956 Nikkor 3.5cm f1.8 lens to take CERTAIN photos with it, big deal.

I am THRILLED to have a digital camera too shoot my extensive M and L mount lens collection. I was THRILLED to have an R-D1, and I bought two despite the real problems of those cameras. I will be very happy when I get an M8, soon.

 

[rxmd]

Hi,

You don't know the subjective mind frame of the posters.

No, I don't (as none of us do, in fact), which is why I wrote "I guess".

This uproar about the posters somehow being at fault for expressing disappointment is garbage too. [...] Don't blame the consumer when they've done nothing wrong.

I'm not "blaming consumers", partly because the majority of the discussant's aren't "consumers" because they don't own/use/consume M8's, but mainly because I'm not "blaming" anybody. What I'm saying is an elaboration of the established idea that most of the discussion about the M8's problems isn't driven by M8 owners, but instead by disappointed non-M8 users, many of them people who have great sympathy for Leica, great expectations in the M8 (hence the potential for great disappointment), without being immediately personally affected. Except that I'm trying to arrive at a more fine-grained view. If you see a "blame" in this, (especially about category #2), I would like to know where you see it.

I'm not saying they're "at fault" either. I'm just voicing a hypothesis about how the discussion itself works. I'm surprised that you seem so insulted by this.

Philipp

 

[jaapv]

There are some reasons for this whole thing:
1. unrealistic expectations
2. folks switching from film to digital with "Leica eyes" and no prior experience
3. refusal to enter a learning curve
4. stubborn impatience
5. slr-users switching to RF without realizing the implications
7. photographic first-timers expecting to turn into instant HCB's in blessed ignorance
8. the trolls indulging in a spot of Leica-bashing
9. and of course, genuine concerns

Which makes 8 out of 9 posts a bit of a frenzy.....

We should not be surprised that the above turned into a mob. The Internet, after all, puts the human condition under a magnifying glass.

This post seems to be in need of amendment- Most of the posts on this forum were not trollish - it is not a personal attack on members here -just thoughts about the interenet hysteria we all witnessed....

 

[rxmd]

Interestingly, since Leica said they were working on a fix for this problem, there has been a discussion on a German forum whether the early M8's without Leica's fix will become collectibles, both for collectors and for people with an interest in IR photography So I guess it all comes around again somehow.

Philipp (who finds himself probably a troll, by Jaap's definition )

 

[jaapv]

I would rather put you in the "genuine concern" category... I did not see myself giving any definitions...

 

[iml]

I wouldn't put "genuine concerns" as the last item in the list, and I don't think it was an unrealistic expectation to hope the camera didn't suffer from IR contamination and banding artifacts. But maybe I'm just old-fashioned

I read somewhere that Leica are supposed to be making an announcement today about what they propose to do. If the only answer is to buy filters, I fear the camera will go down in history as an expensive mistake for all but a very small number of Leica loyalists. I hope they fix it properly and learn from the mistakes, not least for their own reputation. I must admit I'm slightly baffled by the enthusiasm of some M8 owners to buy extra hardware to fix the magenta issue rather than for Leica to shield the sensor properly. I don't think this makes me a troll or a Leica-basher.

Ian

 

[J. Borger]

I wouldn't put "genuine concerns" as the last item in the list, and I don't think it was an unrealistic expectation to hope the camera didn't suffer from IR contamination and banding artifacts. But maybe I'm just old-fashioned

Ian

It is always funny to see people who will have the least trouble with IR issues in real photographic life making the biggest point of it, where people who depend on "accurate" color in all their professional work find it worthwile to work around the issue, not only with the M8 but also with several digital backs for MF cameras "suffering from the same issue".
I hope you by now know the R-D1 also suffers from minor IR issues .. so it is very well possible a fair amount of the blacks in your b&W pictures were probably a lot darker in real life when you shot the pictures ................ feel any worse about the R-D1 now
If not ..... you might consider the M8 as a viable option...... if yes .. well do not even consider the M8 and sell the R-D1.
Ian... in all honesty .. this IR issue is way out of proportion .. the filters are a very viable option for a lot of people..... banding will be fixed!

 

[iml]

I hope you by now know the R-D1 also suffers from minor IR issues ..

"Minor" being the operative word, so much so that nobody really noticed it (I've gone back through all of the pictures I've shot with my R-D1s and can only find one shot with a slight magenta cast), whereas with the M8 it's so apparent that people noticed it within a couple of days of shooting.

Ian... in all honesty .. this IR issue is way out of proportion .. the filters are a very viable option for a lot of people..... banding will be fixed!

I've read plenty of posts from people who have magenta in a large proportion of their pictures and are very unhappy with the proposal to use filters, so I think the notion that it's out of proportion is arguable. In any event, *requiring* IR filters is very likely to negatively affect sales, unless Leica include a set FOC in the box, something I'm sure Leica can ill-afford. Still, perhaps this will speed up development of an M9, if they can't find a proper fix for the M8.

Ian

 

[AShearer]

This entire thread contains some of the best points I've seen on this whole issue so far. Not with regard to the technical issues, but the phenomena of what has happened on the internet over this. I know there is disagreement within the thread, but good old honest disagreement. Having just read through, I realized, I can't add anything to these thoughts that is worth a damn.

 

[J. Borger]

" In any event, *requiring* IR filters is very likely to negatively affect sales, unless Leica include a set FOC in the box ...........
Ian

So now you are suggesting a couple of free $100 filters on a $5000 unit (not counting investments in glas) will still make a product with "unacceptable flaws and issues" a succes??

I am glad you decided to keep the R-D1 BTW .....
I will keep on using mine along with M8 ..... both without filters, even if they come free in the box!!

 

[varjag]

I still have the feeling that any other digital camera with similar "shortcomings" and a price tag like this would've been laughed out by the Leica crowd. But change the badge and suddenly using extra filters for color correction on digital (hardly offered by anyone else) becomes acceptable.

 

[iml]

So now you are suggesting a couple of free $100 filters on a $5000 unit (not counting investments in glas) will still make a product with "unacceptable flaws and issues" a succes??

Er, no. But I think that's the very least that should be done. A sensor fix is ultimately what's needed *if* Leica want to make a success of this camera (I define success as selling to a wider audience than normal, and I suspect Leica's financial planning defines it in the same way). As it stands, you have to be a dyed in the wool Leica fan to accept the shortcomings and pay for the necessary filters on top of lens coding costs to make the filters work on wide angles.

I am glad you decided to keep the R-D1 BTW .....

Me too

I'm glad you're happy with the M8, just not sure I would be.

Ian