Reluctantly - Leica MM Missed Opportunities?

[jarski]

OP, great to read Leica fangirl comments for change 🙂 I think more film emulation and jpeg processing inside camera is just beyond Leica's current resources/abilities. and relying on proven SEP is better than risk end up having something ... well, something like what camera makers usually do when trying to develop software 😛 besides, M9 LCD is pretty useless to judge nuances in contrast etc., rather do it with bigger screen.

I applaud Leica for introducing both the Monochrom and the 50/2 from a technical standpoint.

agreed. better these options exist, rather than not.

 

[Richard G]

To have spent over thirty years working in a particular way with a camera body of a particular size and form and function and with the lenses I have always had and the new ones from Zeiss I have fallen in love with and to know that thousands of young people want the same simplicity from the same age as when I started, under 20, and to have now available a full frame format digital version of the same thing: that is the marvel of the M9. With the M9M we get higher ISO and for many who hardly shoot colour this camera will have serious advantages. If I get a second digital M at some point it may well be this. The age of the technology is much less important than the way of working. My M2 is nearly 60 year old technology, but it's been doing the work of the M9M until the last month or two.

 

[doolittle]

Much as I am intrigued by the MM, I have to wonder whether Silver Efex Pro on its own is more than enough for most people's black and white needs. Heck some black and white film and a scanner is honestly more than enough for me.

 

[jaapv]

Much as I am intrigued by the MM, I have to wonder whether Silver Efex Pro on its own is more than enough for most people's black and white needs. Heck some black and white film and a scanner is honestly more than enough for me.

it is indeed more than enough - if you want to take film based black and white images. Now get a Leica MM and learn to make digital B&W images. Which should look nothing like film ones.

 

[DRabbit]

OP, great to read Leica fangirl comments for change 🙂 I think more film emulation and jpeg processing inside camera is just beyond Leica's current resources/abilities. and relying on proven SEP is better than risk end up having something ... well, something like what camera makers usually do when trying to develop software 😛 besides, M9 LCD is pretty useless to judge nuances in contrast etc., rather do it with bigger screen.

I hear what you're saying. Of course, some would say companies like Fuji have done a pretty decent job of it. An argument could be made as well, that for the money spend on M products, they should have the resources to produce something a little more innovative... that is, of course, if you don't already think the MM is innovation.

To have spent over thirty years working in a particular way with a camera body of a particular size and form and function and with the lenses I have always had and the new ones from Zeiss I have fallen in love with and to know that thousands of young people want the same simplicity from the same age as when I started, under 20, and to have now available a full frame format digital version of the same thing: that is the marvel of the M9. With the M9M we get higher ISO and for many who hardly shoot colour this camera will have serious advantages. If I get a second digital M at some point it may well be this. The age of the technology is much less important than the way of working. My M2 is nearly 60 year old technology, but it's been doing the work of the M9M until the last month or two.

I can appreciate your thoughts Richard. However, I'm not sure this appeals to anyone under 20 unless they are rich-people's kids.

My daughter's best friend loves photography. She got accepted into a college with a strong Photography Conservatory program. She wants to focus a lot on film. I taught her how to develop her first roll, and she's just hooked. I also bought her a rangefinder camera (Yashica) for Christmas a couple of years ago... and she fell it love with the simplicity.

She craves and yearns for a Leica camera... a film one and a digital one. While the film one might be more in reach for her in a few years, a digital one is just out of the question for a very long time... and cost is the reason alone.

Leica currently really makes nothing for her, and talented kids like her -- kids interested in simple, beautiful, high-quality rangefinder cameras for more reasons than just to be a hipster -- may well never get introduced to a Leica of their own.

Of course, that is back to the price argument I was really trying to stay away from in this thread... but it looks like that is inevitable 😉

Much as I am intrigued by the MM, I have to wonder whether Silver Efex Pro on its own is more than enough for most people's black and white needs. Heck some black and white film and a scanner is honestly more than enough for me.

I, for one, have put off buying it for a long time, and the announcement pushed me over the edge to finally give it a try. I'm going to make a big leap here and say for 99% of us, it will absolutely fill the need -- and do it quite well.

And I will continue to enjoy film for now as well 🙂

it is indeed more than enough - if you want to take film based black and white images. Now get a Leica MM and learn to make digital B&W images. Which should look nothing like film ones.

If I read you correctly, it was only a matter of time before someone said that the MM was the only means of producing a "real" digital B&W image. LOL

Other cameras can already do it. At least one is a high quality digital back (and I can't think of it's name right now). There's apparently a pretty reputable company online as well that will convert current DSLRs/Digital Cameras to purely B&W by removing the color filter. It was news to me... but they do exist already.

Beyond that, since Leica is packaging SEP2 with the new MM, even they don't necessarily agree with you. LOL!

 

[segedi]

Unfortunately, "current" Leica technology is outdated by several generations. Oh well, there's one born every minute...more power to the "Leica can do no wrong" crowd.

I simply stated that Leica's use of their existing technology mitigated their risk. And I hope that your sucker comment wasn't aimed at me. Nor that I've said anything about Leica not doing anything wrong. Disagreeing with OP on some points and i'm now a Kool-Aid drinker.... Really....

Anyway, as the OP points out, despite her preference for Leica, the camera just isn't for her. And even if it had all the whiz bang features she desires, it wouldn't make it to her camera bag anyway.

Out.

 

[jaapv]

I hear what you're saying. Of course, some would say companies like Fuji have done a pretty decent job of it. An argument could be made as well, that for the money spend on M products, they should have the resources to produce something a little more innovative... that is, of course, if you don't already think the MM is innovation.



I can appreciate your thoughts Richard. However, I'm not sure this appeals to anyone under 20 unless they are rich-people's kids.

My daughter's best friend loves photography. She got accepted into a college with a strong Photography Conservatory program. She wants to focus a lot on film. I taught her how to develop her first roll, and she's just hooked. I also bought her a rangefinder camera (Yashica) for Christmas a couple of years ago... and she fell it love with the simplicity.

She craves and yearns for a Leica camera... a film one and a digital one. While the film one might be more in reach for her in a few years, a digital one is just out of the question for a very long time... and cost is the reason alone.

Leica currently really makes nothing for her, and talented kids like her -- kids interested in simple, beautiful, high-quality rangefinder cameras for more reasons than just to be a hipster -- may well never get introduced to a Leica of their own.

Of course, that is back to the price argument I was really trying to stay away from in this thread... but it looks like that is inevitable 😉




I, for one, have put off buying it for a long time, and the announcement pushed me over the edge to finally give it a try. I'm going to make a big leap here and say for 99% of us, it will absolutely fill the need -- and do it quite well.

And I will continue to enjoy film for now as well 🙂





If I read you correctly, it was only a matter of time before someone said that the MM was the only means of producing a "real" digital B&W image. LOL

Other cameras can already do it. At least one is a high quality digital back (and I can't think of it's name right now). There's apparently a pretty reputable company online as well that will convert current DSLRs/Digital Cameras to purely B&W by removing the color filter. It was news to me... but they do exist already.

Beyond that, since Leica is packaging SEP2 with the new MM, even they don't necessarily agree with you. LOL!

Yep- Phase One. However, that is MF, hardly mainstream. Yes, I think Silver Efex sends the wrong message as well. However, it is quite powerful and much more than just a kitschy film impersonator.

 

[fotomeow]

Wow. A lot of talk about the programs that come with the MM. I think Leica does this to please a percentage of the photographer population that WANT a higher tech device, or higher tech results, b/c those are the general expectations of the masses at this point: more, better, etc. Its also a cop-out for Leica too, to offer these programs, b/c if they stuck to their origin-guns (keep it simple, robust, functional) I don't think they would include any software at all. But they realize they have to cater to the masses enough to gain their financial support.
I have come to this, perhaps mistaken, conclusion, due to my own experience with the M9P: its slow and dumb, just like film, and thats the way they want to keep it. Which is why I find it interesting that its so easy for us to get caught up in the hype of the software. I believe, perhaps mistakenly, that Leica CAN create a 'better" product (sharper, faster, higher ISO, etc) but they choose not to, b/c they are sticking to the ideas that allowed them to create a legacy in the first place: simple B&W, done simply.

 

[DRabbit]

Anyway, as the OP points out, despite her preference for Leica, the camera just isn't for her. And even if it had all the whiz bang features she desires, it wouldn't make it to her camera bag anyway.

Actually, I don't desire all the whiz-bang features necessarily. I'm just not against them, and am wondering out loud if they could have made the camera better. Whether I or you would use them is besides the point, really.

Yep- Phase One. However, that is MF, hardly mainstream. Yes, I think Silver Efex sends the wrong message as well. However, it is quite powerful and much more than just a kitschy film impersonator.

Thanks, I couldn't remember! Brain-fart 😛
Powerful as it is, it's still a photoshop plugin to effect the file after the fact, and arguably, not at the best moment... when the file is captured. That's part of my point to starting this thread. Should Leica have challenged themselves to take this B&W camera further?

Wow. A lot of talk about the programs that come with the MM. I think Leica does this to please a percentage of the photographer population that WANT a higher tech device, or higher tech results, b/c those are the general expectations of the masses at this point: more, better, etc. Its also a cop-out for Leica too, to offer these programs, b/c if they stuck to their origin-guns (keep it simple, robust, functional) I don't think they would include any software at all. But they realize they have to cater to the masses enough to gain their financial support.
I have come to this, perhaps mistaken, conclusion, due to my own experience with the M9P: its slow and dumb, just like film, and thats the way they want to keep it. Which is why I find it interesting that its so easy for us to get caught up in the hype of the software. I believe, perhaps mistakenly, that Leica CAN create a 'better" product (sharper, faster, higher ISO, etc) but they choose not to, b/c they are sticking to the ideas that allowed them to create a legacy in the first place: simple B&W, done simply.

I'm not really hung up on it (maybe others are?)... I just find/found it an ultimately confusing decision for Leica to include a plugin known for converting color files to B&W. I was actually baffled by it. Perplexed even. I've never once considered that SEP2 was good for working on files that were already monochrome. Though another B&W photographer set me straight on that already, I'm still not really sure I see the benefit to it... and it seems counter-intuitive to a monochrome-only camera. But maybe that's just my issue 😉

The point of this thread wasn't to get caught up on SEP really... just to consider how the MM might have been better... if it could be?

 

[Richard G]

Mike Johnston (The Online Photographer) today refers back to a post of his on the merits of a B&W only camera before the M9M was announced. He makes a good argument. No chance you could shoot a whole roll thinking it was colour. Used exclusively, you'd definitely be thinking in black and white. It has a place.

 

[jarski]

... An argument could be made as well, that for the money spend on M products, they should have the resources to produce something a little more innovative... that is, of course, if you don't already think the MM is innovation.

dont know how much money Leica pours into M R&D, and what results should be expected after X amount of Euros have been used.

anyway, everything else besides modified sensor of M9M, seems common with M9. dont think its very innovative new product, from R&D perspective.

sharing components of M9 is also a good thing, in case M9M wont sell. they can be used making standard M9.

 

[randomm]

All of this whining "they should've done this or that, and why isn't this included in it" is pretty pointless, in my opinion. Leica have simply decided to make a high resolution tool for B&W photographers. And, yes it is expensive, but all Leica cameras have always been expensive when new.

I won't be able to afford it, but looking forward to testing it in couple of weeks time when our little club (Leica Shooters Finland http://www.leicashooters.fi/) gets a hands on unit for couple of hours 🙂

Interesting read touching this issue written last year http://theonlinephotographer.typepa...d-a-digital-camera-have-a-bw-only-sensor.html

 

[DRabbit]

Wasn't meant as whining - they were questions. I also didn't start it being about price at all.

 

[Spicy]

Anything that gets Leica more money for interesting R&D is a good thing. Nobody's forcing you to buy one. You don't like it, don't buy it.

It's been the same way at Porsche for a while now. Make SUVs (albeit excellent ones) for suckers to buy so as to funnel more cash into R&D for real cars like the Boxster Spyder, 911 GT2 and GT3 RS 4.0, and the upcoming 918.

 

[randomm]

Wasn't meant as whining - they were questions. I also didn't start it being about price at all.

I'm sorry, I wasn't directing my venting at you! Just in general it seems that people are looking at the product from a funny angle: instead of trying to understand why, aside from straightforward "let's make money" angle, did Leica release such a product ... what is the rationale behind it, people are looking at it from an engineers' point of view and finding a list of features lacking, and the camera being way too expensive in terms of the technical features it offers. It is a high definition B&W photographer's tool, nothing else. It doesn't need any other features (except perhaps a lower magnification VF for us glasses wearers 🙂). In fact, from may people's point of view it already has way too many features, for example the (admittedly low resolution) screen is pretty pointless to many shooters. Nobody else offers this, aside from those shops who specialise into tearing away the Bayer filter from existing dSLRs.

 

[Richard G]

George, a lot of people are actually very happy with their M9s and still will be when the M10 comes out. I can't now see just what my original gripe was about the LCD of my M9. I guess I am used to it. And I look at it less and less, and for different things than the absolute sharpness of the image. 10,000 ISO and working obligatorily in B&W are reasons to get the M9M. I can't say whether it's worth it. It almost is to me. It will be for others. The M9-P is certainly not worth it, especially in comparison to an M9, but the decision to buy it is not based on a cold assessment of its worth. One hour less time spent at the weekend and less money spent on film and development and scanning were considerations, as was having it almost indistinguishable from my M2.

 

[jaapv]

The fuzzy rendering is not due to the screen. Given decent input it could give quite sharp zoomed images. The problem is that the input is taken from the embedded JPG in the DNG. On a Leica DNG that is extraordinary small. So you need to jump through hoops to get something acceptable on an iPad as well.

 

[doolittle]

it is indeed more than enough - if you want to take film based black and white images. Now get a Leica MM and learn to make digital B&W images. Which should look nothing like film ones.

You make a very good point. I think part of the reason I am forever disappointed by digital cameras is that I expect them to behave like film cameras and give similar results. I will endeavour to change my ways!

In the right hands, a high-iso, low noise black and white sensor should result in some interesting night shots.

 

[Keith]

it is indeed more than enough - if you want to take film based black and white images. Now get a Leica MM and learn to make digital B&W images. Which should look nothing like film ones.

Surely there's one fairly basic similarity! 😀

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Amy
I hope you're well, long time no talk.
Personally, I think Leica have been very sensible to stick to the DNG format, and to inflict yet another piece if software on us would have been a real crime.

Added to which, you can do quite a lot in camera to effect the contrast/sharpness/saruration of the resulting jpgs. Which, of course, don't suffer the normal indignities of jpg output in that they haven't been mangled by an inefficient in camera demosaicing process. but I'm not sure that this has even been mentioned.

RAW files with a big dynamic range inevitably look flat out of the camera, but two minutes work in LR can really change that. Silve Efex pro is an added bonus. The cost of developing and testing software specifically for this camera, which would be anything like as capable, would be out of the question.

Adobe and Leica have developed a slightly modified DNG standard to accommodate RAW files with no mosaicing, so that the camera can be used with state of the art software. Added to this there is a lot of flexibility with in camera jpg files.

More than this seems like a lot to ask!

All the best