Ranchu
Veteran
Cripes what a nightmare, hope things get worked out ok.
Vickko
Veteran
I've had Kindermann work on Leica's for me. They have to open it up to provide a precise estimate. They are very "up front" about it. They can't do a proper estimate without a reasonable internal inspection (imagine trying to get a car mechanic to estimate a repair, without allowing him to open the hood).
And I've had the work refused - once on their recommendation, and a couple times on my decision.
But I've never experienced Kindermann damaging anything of the cosmetics, including old vulcanite. The assumption is that if the work is refused, the camera is returned in the condition that it was received. In reality, even if the work is refused, the camera is returned "better" than it was received, because care and cleaning is required to do the opening, and closing.
You are getting run around, but I don't think Kindermann is guilty of doing the "run around".
....Vick
And I've had the work refused - once on their recommendation, and a couple times on my decision.
But I've never experienced Kindermann damaging anything of the cosmetics, including old vulcanite. The assumption is that if the work is refused, the camera is returned in the condition that it was received. In reality, even if the work is refused, the camera is returned "better" than it was received, because care and cleaning is required to do the opening, and closing.
You are getting run around, but I don't think Kindermann is guilty of doing the "run around".
....Vick
bgb
Well-known
What a mess hope it all works out 
By looking at the photos the camera has been messed with and it doesn't matter if it was the buyer or the tech
The buyer should at least bay for shipping and the camera to be recovered and maybe even checked by a reliable tech that you trust
Have you asked the buyer what he expects to happen i.e does he expect a full refund or is he prepared to accept responsibility for what happened to the camera while it was 'his' ?
By looking at the photos the camera has been messed with and it doesn't matter if it was the buyer or the tech
The buyer should at least bay for shipping and the camera to be recovered and maybe even checked by a reliable tech that you trust
Have you asked the buyer what he expects to happen i.e does he expect a full refund or is he prepared to accept responsibility for what happened to the camera while it was 'his' ?
JianL
Established
Buying and selling secondhand cameras is a nightmare, especially if you're not dealing with the other party face to face.
When I buy I worry about the accuracy of the sellers description, and when I sell, I worry I'll run into an unreasonable buyer who will return an item in a state different to what was sent out.
Unfortunately, every transaction where I was the buyer has been negative. Fortunately, I've never had any problems as a seller.
Personally, I would have accepted the return only on the condition that it was returned in the condition it was sent and that there is indeed a fault with the shutter. I would have also stipulated a deadline for the return.
If i recall correctly, in these circumstances, under English law as soon as a buyer starts dealing with the goods in a manner which suggests he intends to keep it, the item becomes his. I would say opening it up and holding it for a month is such an intention. There mght be a similar principle in the common law systems of America and Canada.
Good luck!
When I buy I worry about the accuracy of the sellers description, and when I sell, I worry I'll run into an unreasonable buyer who will return an item in a state different to what was sent out.
Unfortunately, every transaction where I was the buyer has been negative. Fortunately, I've never had any problems as a seller.
Personally, I would have accepted the return only on the condition that it was returned in the condition it was sent and that there is indeed a fault with the shutter. I would have also stipulated a deadline for the return.
If i recall correctly, in these circumstances, under English law as soon as a buyer starts dealing with the goods in a manner which suggests he intends to keep it, the item becomes his. I would say opening it up and holding it for a month is such an intention. There mght be a similar principle in the common law systems of America and Canada.
Good luck!
I've bought hundreds and hundreds of items online and used... only two issues in 12 years. You need to know what questions to ask, who and where to avoid, and CYA. It's not hard.
JianL
Established
Lucky you.
What makes you think I haven't asked questions or done my research?
There's nothing you can do if a seller, for example, describes an item as 'unmarked' and 'as new' on the phone (and confirmed via email) but which turns out to be scratched when it arrives.
His response to my complaint? 'It's used'.
huntjump
Well-known
To the OP, did not the original buyer admit to attempting to take it apart in a previous thread. How do we know they didn't destroy the vulcanite, then sent it off (assuming they did send it off). Unless I'm confusing who the person in question is, i quote below the post I'm referencing:
"... I think I'll have to find a tutorial on how to take it apart as I'm fairly certain something is just stuck inside, but I don't want to make it worse!"
"... I think I'll have to find a tutorial on how to take it apart as I'm fairly certain something is just stuck inside, but I don't want to make it worse!"
I just find it hard to believe that you found only dishonest internet sellers. Perhaps you expect too much from used gear? I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to figure out why some have great experiences and others have horrible ones.
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
I'm beginning to fall into the Roger Hicks camp. After I'm done selling the stuff in my signature, that's it. Any other camera equipment that I acquire and decide that I don't want any more is either going in the trash or being given away to friends. Selling cameras is exhausting.
braver
Well-known
Well, I've been lucky so far, but I agree it's quite the effort. I definitely prefer a face-to-face cash transaction for anything that's worth something.
Anyway, this case seems like it's going to work out. You've got both the cash and the camera, and zero obligations to the buyer at this point. I'd say he either pays up front for shipping it back to him, or he gets refunded whatever is left after repairs, new vulcanite, and a bottle of scotch.
Mister E
Well-known
I wouldn't have accepted it back in the first place. All sales final.
HarryW
Established
To the OP.
Have read all the advice that you have been getting but let's get this in perspective. You didn't put a camera up for sale to then take it back and have to waste your time fixing out someone else's screw up. Life is too short for that.
To the buyer.
Do the proper thing - send a prepaid label, get the camera back and fix out the mess that you appear to have created.
Have read all the advice that you have been getting but let's get this in perspective. You didn't put a camera up for sale to then take it back and have to waste your time fixing out someone else's screw up. Life is too short for that.
To the buyer.
Do the proper thing - send a prepaid label, get the camera back and fix out the mess that you appear to have created.
uffda_x
Member
The only issue with being a seller is paypal. The buyer has a lot of leverage when it comes to the 45 day dispute window. When you're dealing with mechanical items, not much you can do once it enters the buyers hands. For all you know the buyer could be using the camera as a hammer, but all paypal needs to hear is "not working" before they side with the buyer. Paypal doesn't take into account the mishandling of items after a buyer receives them....they just hear "not working".....so the seller gets hit with issuing a refund. That was the situation here...I received an email 39 days in saying he wanted to send it back (which still boggles my mind!)....not much I could do seeing I offered him a refund the first week he had it, for paypal that would have been an easy open and shut case. In the end I was lucky enough for this to work out in my favor. I just issued him a refund minus the cost of have it recovered (ALL expenses!) I had the options to really stick it to the buyer in this situation, but decided to let Karma take its course....and there was that voodoo hex...but thats a whole nother story!
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If the buyer is looking at this thread, I wonder why he hasn't chimed in to defend himself (though it could be because he/she wants to do business privately)?
uffda_x
Member
Offered the refund from the start (no response until a month later!), camera comes back in worse shape, missing paperwork, and the shutter is working perfectly fine....whats left for defending?
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His side of the story?
huntjump
Well-known
Nice guy you are OP. I would have probably said, prepaid envelope back to you or you will get almost nothing in refund after all is said and done. The fact it came back working would piss me off, and show not only did he lie, but he wasted your time and ruined a fine classic. He clearly admitted thinking of working on it himself, i dont think any professional leica repairman would destroy the vulcanite on an assessment.
Nigel Meaby
Well-known
Hmm still think you conceded too much to him. Without having the camera thoroughly checked over you could still end up out of pocket if a problem arises with it. Did you confirm Kindermann looked at it?
If he contacted you after 39 days, by the time you received it back and had it checked you would have been past the 45 day mark surely, and then the Paypal dispute window would have been closed.
The buyer is conspicuous by his absence from this thread. He's going to find it difficult to buy from people who have read this thread, in the future.
If he contacted you after 39 days, by the time you received it back and had it checked you would have been past the 45 day mark surely, and then the Paypal dispute window would have been closed.
The buyer is conspicuous by his absence from this thread. He's going to find it difficult to buy from people who have read this thread, in the future.
Darshan
Well-known
I am glad for the OP that the issue is resolved.
If it were me, I would have sent the "returned" camera back to him at "his" cost and keep the money, after all, you intended to sell the camera in the first place.
In the best interest of this wonderful community, I think the identity of the buyer should be revealed here so future sellers can be cautious preventing a similar thread down the road.
If it were me, I would have sent the "returned" camera back to him at "his" cost and keep the money, after all, you intended to sell the camera in the first place.
In the best interest of this wonderful community, I think the identity of the buyer should be revealed here so future sellers can be cautious preventing a similar thread down the road.