Ororaro
Well-known
Jokes aside, a real revolutionnary improvement a M camera could have is to be able to see TTL but still keeping the camera as is in size and no mirror. I'm dreaming, heh?
ferider
Veteran
NB23 said:
How about a film camera with digital VF ?
iml
Well-known
If it took 120 film and shot 6x7 negs that would be an improvement 
Ian
Ian
Didier
"Deed"
colinh said:Ok, let's have some really wild ideas from everyone...
My contributions:
1. How about a variable magnification VF ? You could have say a collar around the eyepiece which lets you select the magnification (ie. zoom
If this caught on, you would also only need maybe ONE frame line (in combination with click stops).
You then wouldn't need external viewfinders, VF magnifiers and three different M cameras
2. Really radical, this one: move the blasted tripod hole underneath the lens!
3. Spot metering possibility
4. A better-placed exposure correction dial (quite stiff, but without a safety catch - to enable one handed adjustment.
5. I want my self-timer back! Not so that I can get in the picture, but for vibration-free exposures.
OK, that's it. Keep the bottom-loading. I have no idea what it's supposed to be good for - but it makes the M nice and anachronistic
colin
You're wanting SLR features for a rangefinder system - so why dont you better use a SLR? Every wish you have would make such a RF body bigger, heavier, more electronical. Why kill the typical RF advantages of compactness and simplicity?
Variable magnification with one frameline only is theoretically designable, but a) would make the camera significantly higher and bigger, b) the viewfinder dimmer and unsharper, c) almost impossible combined with a rangefinder (which would also zoom together with the viewfinder). Even very tight mechanical tolerances would not allow accurate focusing anymore. Disassemble the top plate and study the rangefinder mechanism from any RF body, and you'll understand why.
Bottom loading is as fast once you got used to it. After 5000 rolls a 1/10 second difference in loading speed does not make a difference anymore. Btw. I've had as many misloaded rolls in Nikon SLR's and Bessa L than in a M6.
Spot metering would blow up size and electronics. Buy a used Spotmeter for the occasions you use it really and keep the slim and mechanical body. Leica M style street shooting means centerweighted metering for me. Spotmetering is more for tripod and studio works, rather untypical RF assignments, or other unspontaneous shooting styles like zone system.
For vibration free tripod shots, I successfully use a release cable on rangefinder cameras.
Shooting with one hand: so far, I have not found any camera body where every dial, knob, lever, button, ring, barrel could be used onehanded. But on the M6 I can easily use the speed dial one-handed to correct the exposure. Alas, with the R-D1 I need a second hand - which is not so an issue as I fortunately still have both of them
D.
Ororaro
Well-known
ferider said:
Well, if the lag time is 0.0001 and it matches the optical quality we already have, then I'll take it!
colinh
Well-known
shimo-kitasnap said:
I think you need to use paragraphs and white space more.
colin
Harry Lime
Practitioner
All M models:
- A new RF unit with variable size framelines that not only compensate for parallax in x and y, but also varies the area of coverage to indicate the change in magnification that occurs when you focus from up close to infinity.
I like the idea of variable magnification viewfinder, so no matter what lens you are using the framelines fill the viewfinder. But I could live without that if I could only have the parallax / mag. correction.
Heck, at this point I would be giddy if Leica offered a frameline set that was exactly identical in every way to what is found in an M2/M4.
- I can live with 1/1000th. I carry at least 2 bodies and sometimes as many as 4, so I can have two 35/50 sets with 400 and 1600asa film and switch on the fly.
1/4000th or 1/8000th would be nice, but I do not want to give up the silent, semi-mechanical or fully mechanical shutter. The M8 is too loud for my taste. Maybe the M8 setup would be quieter without the motorized cocking. That seems to make more noise that the shutter actually being fired.
- Selectable spot / average metering pattern like on the R6.2. Very handy.
M8
- Fix the accuracy of the framelines
- 16bit files (optional). Let me decide if it's a waste or not.
- WEATHERSEALING like a Canon 1D series or Nikon X. Add gaskets to the mounts on the lenses.
- 10-12 stops of dynamic range at 10.8 - 12.8MP. I can even live with the x1.3 mag factor, if I had to. The extra DOF is useful for street shooting.
M7.2
- Zeiss ZM style shutter speed dial. The current exposure compensation set up is impossible to adjust while you are shooting, without two hands and taking your eye off the subject.
- Exposure lock button other than the shutter release. I hate to have to re-lock the exposure every time after I take a shot. Maybe it could be located just above the battery compartment. You could trigger it with your right index finger. You need you other fingers to focus, advance the film and hit the shutter button.
- Metal battery cover. Come one Leica. It's a battery dependent camera and you put a cheap, flimsy plastic battery cap on it?
MP
- What's there to change? I would buy one tomorrow, if Leica offered the old M2/M4 size frameline mask.
MP3
Make it a standard catalog item. (with old size framelines, like the orig. MP or M2/M4)
LENSES
- Collapsible hoods that lock into place like on the 2/75 ASPH and 1.4/50 ASPH.
- Integrated IR coatings for the digital M series. I don't care if this is a problem on film cameras.
ACCESSORIES
- A small, but reasonably powerful flash similar to the SF20/24 WITH A HEAD THAT SWIVELS AND TILTS so you can bounce it. It should also run on 2 or 3 AA batteries. Geez!
- AUFSU waistlevel finder with markings for 28/35/50 or 35/50.
- A variable focal length viewfinder that is as accurate as the VIOOH, but more rugged.
- Hoods that don't pop off when you knock them. The hood for the 1.4/35 Lux ASPH has a lock, which is perfect (but it's too big for my taste). The square hood on the 2/35 ASPH will pop off if you look at it the wrong way.
- A new RF unit with variable size framelines that not only compensate for parallax in x and y, but also varies the area of coverage to indicate the change in magnification that occurs when you focus from up close to infinity.
I like the idea of variable magnification viewfinder, so no matter what lens you are using the framelines fill the viewfinder. But I could live without that if I could only have the parallax / mag. correction.
Heck, at this point I would be giddy if Leica offered a frameline set that was exactly identical in every way to what is found in an M2/M4.
- I can live with 1/1000th. I carry at least 2 bodies and sometimes as many as 4, so I can have two 35/50 sets with 400 and 1600asa film and switch on the fly.
1/4000th or 1/8000th would be nice, but I do not want to give up the silent, semi-mechanical or fully mechanical shutter. The M8 is too loud for my taste. Maybe the M8 setup would be quieter without the motorized cocking. That seems to make more noise that the shutter actually being fired.
- Selectable spot / average metering pattern like on the R6.2. Very handy.
M8
- Fix the accuracy of the framelines
- 16bit files (optional). Let me decide if it's a waste or not.
- WEATHERSEALING like a Canon 1D series or Nikon X. Add gaskets to the mounts on the lenses.
- 10-12 stops of dynamic range at 10.8 - 12.8MP. I can even live with the x1.3 mag factor, if I had to. The extra DOF is useful for street shooting.
M7.2
- Zeiss ZM style shutter speed dial. The current exposure compensation set up is impossible to adjust while you are shooting, without two hands and taking your eye off the subject.
- Exposure lock button other than the shutter release. I hate to have to re-lock the exposure every time after I take a shot. Maybe it could be located just above the battery compartment. You could trigger it with your right index finger. You need you other fingers to focus, advance the film and hit the shutter button.
- Metal battery cover. Come one Leica. It's a battery dependent camera and you put a cheap, flimsy plastic battery cap on it?
MP
- What's there to change? I would buy one tomorrow, if Leica offered the old M2/M4 size frameline mask.
MP3
Make it a standard catalog item. (with old size framelines, like the orig. MP or M2/M4)
LENSES
- Collapsible hoods that lock into place like on the 2/75 ASPH and 1.4/50 ASPH.
- Integrated IR coatings for the digital M series. I don't care if this is a problem on film cameras.
ACCESSORIES
- A small, but reasonably powerful flash similar to the SF20/24 WITH A HEAD THAT SWIVELS AND TILTS so you can bounce it. It should also run on 2 or 3 AA batteries. Geez!
- AUFSU waistlevel finder with markings for 28/35/50 or 35/50.
- A variable focal length viewfinder that is as accurate as the VIOOH, but more rugged.
- Hoods that don't pop off when you knock them. The hood for the 1.4/35 Lux ASPH has a lock, which is perfect (but it's too big for my taste). The square hood on the 2/35 ASPH will pop off if you look at it the wrong way.
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colinh
Well-known
Didier said:
This is a good argument, except that I don't think it applies to any of my suggestions.
I have several very good SLRs, but I like the small size and feel of the M.
None of the suggestions would reduce simplicity. How does moving the tripod mount increase complexity? Or removing the EV correction lock (on the M7).
What's wrong with a spot meter? For cameras which already have a meter this wouldn't increase weight, size, electronics or complexity. I assume M shooters who are used to working without auto exposure (or even a meter) know what they're doing and might occasionally find a spot meter useful.
I have a spot meter, but a lot of people don't. Are they supposed to bring their SLR with a telephoto lens to use that as a spot meter? (I've seen that suggested) Given that all you'd need would be a switch, a second sensor set up to look at a smaller part of the white patch - I don't think it would be that much of a problem.
It's not as if I'd suggested matrix metering.
I have the 250 EUR 1.25 x magnifier. It doesn't drastically increase the size and weight of the camera or make the VF significantly dimmer. I think it's within Leica's capabilities to make a similarly sized variable magnifier.
I suggested leaving that.
But anyway, it's a lot more than 1/10 sec difference!You're not alone there, but who puts a rangefinder on a tripod anyway? That's not exactly spontaneous street shooting.
Anyway, I have a softie screwed into the shutter release. Some people even have them slightly glued in (so as not to loose them). And finally the self timer was traditional on the M3!
This is a misunderstanding. On the M6 you can move the aperture ring with one hand. And the speed dial. and the lever. etc. (while the other hand supports the camera).
Yup. Exactly. And on the M7 I have to lower the camera, hold it with the fingers of the left hand (leaving the left thumb free) and some of the fingers of the right hand (leaving tumb and index finger free), press the little button with the left thumb, and rotate the dial with the right finger and thumb.
I'd like to be able to do it like you adjust the speed. That's all. Doesn't increase weight, complexity or size of the camera. Doesn't make it look and sound like an SLR.
Anyway, not to worry. No need to take this seriously - they won't implement any of this.
colin
Fausto
semper ubi sub ubi
Film Check Window.
Just throwin' it out there.
Just throwin' it out there.
colinh
Well-known
Harry Lime said:
They wouldn't need to quite FILL the VF, people like seeing extra around the edges.
You put the exposure compensation thing very well. Thanks.
A small, simple flash, with a MOVEABLE head? Are you kidding? If you want SLR functionality get an SLR! Making the head movable would increase the size, weight and usefulness of such a flash. NO WAY. You're not supposed to use flash anyway with an M. Or you can get those Metz things (that are bigger than the camera itself). Balances very nicely on the neck strap.
colin
shimo-kitasnap
everything is temporary..
sorry i was on a roll......
colinh
Well-known
shimo-kitasnap said:
No problem
I'm sure the next M will fit the bill perfectly.colin
ferider
Veteran
colinh said:
Hmm. You need to go out and shoot, Henri.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Assuming that the M7 is the pinnacle of Leica's film M development ... it is the only film M with AE after all ... the following improvements would be appreciated.
The ISO and exposure compensation dial moved to a sensible location.
Manual frame line selection.
A shutter speed dial that protrudes slightly beyond the body of the camera for fingertip control ... they got it right with the M5!
A price that reflects it's true value. At $5600.00 Aust suggested retail it's not surprising that you dont see many of them around. If you find this price hard to believe ... check this link.
http://www.photolab.com.au/shop/product_info.php?cPath=122_121_24&products_id=986
The fact that I was able to by mine in perfect condition for half that price ... doesn't say much for the resale value!
The ISO and exposure compensation dial moved to a sensible location.
Manual frame line selection.
A shutter speed dial that protrudes slightly beyond the body of the camera for fingertip control ... they got it right with the M5!
A price that reflects it's true value. At $5600.00 Aust suggested retail it's not surprising that you dont see many of them around. If you find this price hard to believe ... check this link.
http://www.photolab.com.au/shop/product_info.php?cPath=122_121_24&products_id=986
The fact that I was able to by mine in perfect condition for half that price ... doesn't say much for the resale value!
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colinh
Well-known
eet ees 2.30 in ze moning 'ere. Ze light is no good, and zere are no pretty girls on ze streets. Mmmm, maybe zer are, but zey are not ze right ones, you know?
Anyway, I was using ze irony, you know?
Bon soiree,
Henri
actually, having now seen interviews with both HCB and Winogrand, I can identify more with W
Anyway, I was using ze irony, you know?
Bon soiree,
Henri
actually, having now seen interviews with both HCB and Winogrand, I can identify more with W
eef
Established
The M8.1 (or M9 or what-have-you) could use:
1) Digitally composed frameline. That way you only see one, and it compensates not just for parallax but for image size. No more of this "set for .7 meter" nonsense. Anyone else tired of all the extra stuff that creeps into your pictures? Engineering the thing? Perhaps an LCD?
2) Body based anti-shake mechanism. Leica is about hand held right? So how about a moving sensor to compensate at slow shutter speeds, like the Sony Alpha and some Olympus models have? It could also do a little dance at startup to clean off the dust, as in those DSLRs.
3) Same size as the M6? I still think the older one fits my hand better, but I have not used it in so long I can't really say.
4) Quicker access to ISO and Exposure compensation settings. Sean Reid is eloquent on this subject. The RD-1 is superior in this regard, I stopped using mine mostly because the rangefinder mechanism flakiness is too annoying.
1) Digitally composed frameline. That way you only see one, and it compensates not just for parallax but for image size. No more of this "set for .7 meter" nonsense. Anyone else tired of all the extra stuff that creeps into your pictures? Engineering the thing? Perhaps an LCD?
2) Body based anti-shake mechanism. Leica is about hand held right? So how about a moving sensor to compensate at slow shutter speeds, like the Sony Alpha and some Olympus models have? It could also do a little dance at startup to clean off the dust, as in those DSLRs.
3) Same size as the M6? I still think the older one fits my hand better, but I have not used it in so long I can't really say.
4) Quicker access to ISO and Exposure compensation settings. Sean Reid is eloquent on this subject. The RD-1 is superior in this regard, I stopped using mine mostly because the rangefinder mechanism flakiness is too annoying.
ferider
Veteran
colinh said:Mmmm, maybe zer are, but zey are not ze right ones, you know?
Anyway, I was using ze irony, you know?
Bon soiree,
Henri
actually, having now seen interviews with both HCB and Winogrand, I can identify more with W
Je vois, je vois, la petite a l'eglise, je me rapelle (nice photo, BTW).
Allez vous couchez, donc.
I like W. too.
shimo-kitasnap
everything is temporary..
I was thinking about getting an RD-1 off ebay, are they reliable/rugged like an M3 or should I wait for a better digital RF? seems like they are going for 1300-1750 or so.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Fausto said:
1) That would be nice wouldn't it? But with it would come more foam.
2) As several have said move the Exposure compensation dial- The one thing the ZM & G2 have over the M7.
Nachkebia said:
Forte 100 in HC-110b looks almost like the old Tri-x at 800.
I'm happy with the shutter speeds, Used 1000 today for perhaps the 25th time, shooting HP5 in full sun- I'd been shooting in the shadows then turned around and couldn't resist what was lit up.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
colinh said:
True, they should approximately be the size of the 35mm lines on a .72 body.
colinh said:
Weeeellllll, even St. HCB used a flash once or twice in his life. Capa and everyone else also used a flash occasionally.
But if you are going to use one, being able to bounce it makes a huge difference in hiding it. With enough experience you can totally avoid the flash look. I hate the way a lot of DSLR shooters use a flash, when they fill all of the shadows like their subject is sitting in front of a giant softbox. I rarely use a flash, but sometimes there simply is no other way to get the shot. And when I do use one, I mask it so you'll be hard pressed to know I used one.
I have a Metz 32-2z (or something like that) and the SF20. I love the size of the SF, but you can't bounce the bloody thing and it uses very expensive batteries. The Metz can twist like a pretzel and uses AA batteries, but it balances poorly on the M. I have to use it with the Leicavit or a Rapidwinder to help balance it on my M6ttl or M7.
Many moons ago Nikon made a flash called the SB20. It had a drum shaped flash head that you could tilt, without all the bulk you get in a traditional flash. Here's a pic of it sitting on some sort of stand. If Leica made something like this the size of the SF24 (that took AA batteries) we would be in business.
