jan normandale
Film is the other way
Look more then shoot more. Afterwards be honest with yourself, you will see what is good and what is not.
RFF & cam clubs stifle creativity?
- Thread starter dadsm3
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Toby
On the alert
What is good about forums or any group is that they encourage you to show your work and for me the act of showing work to others is key to improving one's own critical faculties. If I post something on Flickr I think is really good and it sinks without trace I reappraise it, the same if I post something I'm not sure about and it gets lots of hits. I may not agree with what others think but it makes me think harder about my own work. The only real problem is a club that's very narrow minded. I'm also a bit wary of those long on opinion but short on pictures, I don't value the opinions of those whose work I like more those whose work I don't like, but if you want to join a community like RFF I think you should share pictures AND opinions. I can think of some past members whose strong opinions may have been moderated if they had to show their own work to back it up.
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
dadsm3 said:
Nice thread and good fodder for thought! It makes sense to me. There's a behavioral/behaviorist (whatever it is, think: Pavlov's dogs) element to showing work to any group. If a camera club or a forum is your only source of feedback/approval and you show work, you ultimately seek posritive feedback/approval as a "reward." Eventually, through seeking reward, you will gravitate toward meeting the approval of the group and the group's aesthetic.
Like Jon said, often the work you value the most, work that you feel extents you "artistically," goes unnoticed (low click count and comment-less). Most likely it is outside the aesthetics of the group, and you've received no "reward" for it.
Frank's advice is best. You must venture out and seek further, grasshopper. 🙂
.
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40oz
...
Pherdinand said:
I don't know. I don't think your post was addressing anything other than the fear of rejection. My post was attacking the idea that "the artist" is someone who doesn't benefit from the input of others. Two entirely different concepts.
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Pherdinand
the snow must go on
CV< i was not pretending that talent = creativity (although i don't think they are SO totally different!). I should have said something like "...then he's probably not HAVING that creativity at all. Or talent, or whatever he thinks he is blessed with."
But i don't think that talent is what one "hopes" others see in him. It is indeed possible to relate it to others, though. To a "publicum".
Talent for me means, you can achieve great things in a certain field with some investment (of effort and time), opposed to untalented people who can learn and practice as much as they want and never get to that level. Creativity is not very far from this, it means to me that one can use his talent to come up with things that he has never seen/heard/experienced before, or to solve problems in a way that average people would not think of.
Maybe music is the easiest way to illustrate this.
There are plenty of enthousiastic musicians who will never reach the level of being able to play to a large public, other than biased family members, and achieve success/respect. There are a few who can learn to play and reproduce reat masterpieces on an enjoyable level. These have talent for playing. ANd there are a very few among them that are creative and after mastering technique they come up with their own music.
But i don't think that talent is what one "hopes" others see in him. It is indeed possible to relate it to others, though. To a "publicum".
Talent for me means, you can achieve great things in a certain field with some investment (of effort and time), opposed to untalented people who can learn and practice as much as they want and never get to that level. Creativity is not very far from this, it means to me that one can use his talent to come up with things that he has never seen/heard/experienced before, or to solve problems in a way that average people would not think of.
Maybe music is the easiest way to illustrate this.
There are plenty of enthousiastic musicians who will never reach the level of being able to play to a large public, other than biased family members, and achieve success/respect. There are a few who can learn to play and reproduce reat masterpieces on an enjoyable level. These have talent for playing. ANd there are a very few among them that are creative and after mastering technique they come up with their own music.
R
RML
Guest
I joined a local camera club only recently and already I don't feel I quite belong there.
I'm the ONLY one who shoots rf. All but one are 50+ years old and don't even know what n rf camera is, let alone handled one ever.
I'm one who actually knows photographers by name, can talk about photos in a deliberate way (apart from "it's nice" or "the horizon is tilted") and am not afraid to actually claim that PS is overkill for the average amateur photog (all of them have a ripped copy of the latest PS. No-one paid for it, let alone retail).
I also have my own "style" and subjects that interest me, a style and interests that are completely different from the rest of the club.
I'm also not very happy with the level of urge to improve in the club. People are generally willing to stick with what they already know and always shoot. These people have plenty of time to shoot as most are pensioners already, but none is even considering taking a course or explore a different field of photography.
When I first showed up there my false colour IR photos were dismissed as over-PSd! No PSing was done to them, only white balance selection in the RAW developer. Yet, the colours didn't look real (the reason it's called false colour IR) so it must have been PS and must have been done poorly.
My entry for the national photo contest was this shot ( http://shardsofphotography2.blogspot.com/2006/10/paw-40-2006.html ). Only a few people considered it worthwhile. Most said is was too dark, too "old" looking, too whathaveya. I have no idea if it won but it was MY choice, and mine alone. I just find it sad that so few people can provide constructive critique.
I'm the ONLY one who shoots rf. All but one are 50+ years old and don't even know what n rf camera is, let alone handled one ever.
I'm one who actually knows photographers by name, can talk about photos in a deliberate way (apart from "it's nice" or "the horizon is tilted") and am not afraid to actually claim that PS is overkill for the average amateur photog (all of them have a ripped copy of the latest PS. No-one paid for it, let alone retail).
I also have my own "style" and subjects that interest me, a style and interests that are completely different from the rest of the club.
I'm also not very happy with the level of urge to improve in the club. People are generally willing to stick with what they already know and always shoot. These people have plenty of time to shoot as most are pensioners already, but none is even considering taking a course or explore a different field of photography.
When I first showed up there my false colour IR photos were dismissed as over-PSd! No PSing was done to them, only white balance selection in the RAW developer. Yet, the colours didn't look real (the reason it's called false colour IR) so it must have been PS and must have been done poorly.
My entry for the national photo contest was this shot ( http://shardsofphotography2.blogspot.com/2006/10/paw-40-2006.html ). Only a few people considered it worthwhile. Most said is was too dark, too "old" looking, too whathaveya. I have no idea if it won but it was MY choice, and mine alone. I just find it sad that so few people can provide constructive critique.
darkkavenger
Massimiliano Mortillaro
well, RML, that is one F***ING AWESOME photo you submitted to the contest, and I would love to purchase a print of it, if it was available...
pvdhaar
Peter
This is universal, and isn't limited to photography.. It's a group process. Whenever there's a too homogeneous group of people together, fitting in becomes the norm, and not fitting in is perceived as a threat to its sheer existance. 😱RML said:
If you think you're on to something photographically, then by definition you are. Even if it's six billion against one, you can still be right. In fact, if it's six billion against one, you probably are right, the rest of the world just hasn't catched up yet. 😎
Things may be different if you try to make a living out of it, but I strongly feel that no one should try to please others when
creating art. And if others don't like what you're doing, why should you care? It's their loss, not yours.. Hmm, maybe with the single exception of a shot of the kids for the wife perhaps 🙄
Oh, and the picture you showed, it's fine with me. A little too dark perhaps, and maybe looking a bit too old.. Ha, just kidding of course! 😀
R
RML
Guest
pvdhaar said:
Cute, Jaap. Very cute. 🙂
R
RML
Guest
darkkavenger said:
My photos are always for sale. 🙂
If you really care to buy one, drop me a line.
We'll settle it right there and then. 🙂
pvdhaar
Peter
What has my cat got to do with it? 😀RML said:
Japie's the cat in my avatar by the way..
T
tedwhite
Guest
I was teaching at a college in Arizona and one day the college president, who knew I was a photographer, asked me to take a look at the lone photography class as he had heard some rumblings about it.
I asked the instructor (let's call him Mr. Smith) if I could sit in on a few classes and with what appeared to be some reluctance he said OK.
The classroom consisted of a large studio-like room adjoining a very nice, fully equipped photo lab, stainless steel sinks, temp control, enlargers, etc.
To my astonishment the class merely consisted of students shooting slides processed elsewhere and bringing them to class, wherein the instructor would display them with a slide projector and solicit student comments. Of course the comments were, "Oh, that's very nice," "What beautiful roses," etc. Negative comments were rare. The lab was unused and in fact the door was locked.
Virtually all the students were older and retired and all belonged to the same camera club. I found the class deadly boring and a complete joke. I reported back to the president. Being diplomatic and a bureaucrat, rather than fire the instructor on the spot, he simply removed the course from the spring catalog, thus effectively eliminating both the class and the instructor's job.
He then made me head of the photography department - at no increase in salary of course - and I was able to put together a proper set of course offerings and hired several good photographers who taught various courses on a part-time basis.
Sadly, among the new group of young, eager students, we noticed very few of the original older folks. But the few who did enroll had a wonderful time learning to shoot black and white film, develop it, and make enlargements. During the course of the semester, they quietly dropped out of their camera club.
Ted
I asked the instructor (let's call him Mr. Smith) if I could sit in on a few classes and with what appeared to be some reluctance he said OK.
The classroom consisted of a large studio-like room adjoining a very nice, fully equipped photo lab, stainless steel sinks, temp control, enlargers, etc.
To my astonishment the class merely consisted of students shooting slides processed elsewhere and bringing them to class, wherein the instructor would display them with a slide projector and solicit student comments. Of course the comments were, "Oh, that's very nice," "What beautiful roses," etc. Negative comments were rare. The lab was unused and in fact the door was locked.
Virtually all the students were older and retired and all belonged to the same camera club. I found the class deadly boring and a complete joke. I reported back to the president. Being diplomatic and a bureaucrat, rather than fire the instructor on the spot, he simply removed the course from the spring catalog, thus effectively eliminating both the class and the instructor's job.
He then made me head of the photography department - at no increase in salary of course - and I was able to put together a proper set of course offerings and hired several good photographers who taught various courses on a part-time basis.
Sadly, among the new group of young, eager students, we noticed very few of the original older folks. But the few who did enroll had a wonderful time learning to shoot black and white film, develop it, and make enlargements. During the course of the semester, they quietly dropped out of their camera club.
Ted
popstar
Well-known
Very interesting story Ted. I'm glad you were able to affect positive change for the sake of the students who wanted to learn. Thanks for sharing!
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