Ricoh GR21 lens issue?

[bsandwich]

Just picked up a GR21 for what I think was a good price. Fired off a test roll and got it scanned at a local spot noticed something that worried me. Worried it's haze or something with the lens (which I already cleaned with a microfiber cloth).

http://imgur.com/gallery/HtSwi

Anyway, I can still return it today if there's any issue. Your input is appreciated!

 

[Scope79]

Have you checked the back element of the lens, finger prints possibly?

 

[bsandwich]

Yeah, I cleaned the back element as well. It's strange because the lens looks spotless to me.

 

[Scope79]

I would also consider a possible problem in scanning stage, if you have other place where you can scan few shots to compare it would be useful, as for camera lens fault, it likely too as these cameras know for all kinds of issues and sadly not many people will repair them today. Good luck!

 

[bsandwich]

Thanks for the idea. I'm going to run out to get another scan and I'll report back in about an hour.

 

[p.giannakis]

What i would do, is take a picture of the negatives with a digital camera, open it in a photoeditor, invert the picture and check if the flare is there. if it is, there possibly something between the elements. Otherwise lab-scanning to to blame.
All in all, i would put another film and test it. Develop the negatives elsewhere.

 

[bsandwich]

Scanned at another lab. Also I developed a roll at another lab. Issue persists. Really bizarre. I guess I will return. Thanks for your input everyone!

 

[rfaspen]

Just like my LTM summaron 35/3.5. It looks nearly spotless and hazeless until you get a good, powerful LED flashlight shining through it. Then I can see haze, but it doesn't look bad :| But, my images are flare city. Worse than the OP examples in most cases.

Internal haze can be cleaned in most lenses. Most. Not always a DIY job though, and some hazes won't come off but those are uncommon. Mostly, its a matter of finding someone who is competent with your particular lens. The GR 21 is not very common (to be obvious) so I only think of Focal Point or DAG off hand.

BTW, I've seen example images from that 21 that are spectacular. Could have been (may still be) a great lens.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Ricoh GR21 lens issue?

The GR21 lens is extremely prone to haze. I recently tried to find a clean LTM version in Tokyo, but gave up after examining about 5 or 6 in person. They all had haze to varying degrees and due to the design of the lens (the rear optical group is a sealed unit that cannot be disassembled and I assume the front optical group is too) it cannot be cleaned in some cases. And the haze comes back even after cleaning. I opted for a clean Color Skopar 21/4 instead.

 

[jsrockit]

I must be blind, because I just see common lens flare, a little bit of underexposure, and typical lab scans... but I guess this camera isn't supposed to have much flare? I guess it could have a little haze then.

 

[bsandwich]

In case anyone was curious, here are the same images scanned on a Noritsu LS-600. No idea what the first scanner was. http://imgur.com/gallery/g4eiC

 

[jonmanjiro]

get a good, powerful LED flashlight shining through it

bsandwich, did you try this??

In case anyone was curious, here are the same images scanned on a Noritsu LS-600. No idea what the first scanner was. http://imgur.com/gallery/g4eiC

Certainly looks like haze is affecting IQ to me.

 

[bsandwich]

jonmanjiro, wasn't actually planning on trying that, but since you asked I did.

GR21 looks awful. Obviously because it's a point and shoot, by default the shutter is closed and light doesn't shine through. So I turned off the lights and tripped the shutter for a nice long shutter speed as I shined an LED flashlight through the back of the lens. It instantly became obvious why that haze is showing. The lens lit up white with an even and dense spread of stains(?) almost resembling tiny water droplets. There's the haze.

Like I said, I also have a GR1. To my eyes, my GR1 takes great and sharp photos (no visible haze). But when I tried the same on my GR1, the lens also showed tons of dust and just crap in general. I couldn't believe how bad the GR1 lens looked so I had to do a double take through the GR21 lens. The GR21 looks to me WAY WAY worse. The GR1 has an uneven and relatively sparse array of white flecks while the GR21 has this almost pattern-like, crowded spread of tiny white dots.

Anyway, hope that is helpful to someone. Thanks everyone for the input!

 

[kiss-o-matic]

The GR21 lens is extremely prone to haze. I recently tried to find a clean LTM version in Tokyo, but gave up after examining about 5 or 6 in person. They all had haze to varying degrees and due to the design of the lens (the rear optical group is a sealed unit that cannot be disassembled and I assume the front optical group is too) it cannot be cleaned in some cases. And the haze comes back even after cleaning. I opted for a clean Color Skopar 21/4 instead.

Cheers for this... I've had my eyes on one for a while, that I was going to pick up on a trip over. When an online seller (either Ebay or YJA) says it is haze-free, would you take this w/ a grain of salt? Are the GR1v's also prone to the junk above that bsandwich found?

It's probably smarter for me to just get the cheaper 21/4 Skopar and stick it on one of my M-Mount bodies. Cheap lens, and I hear is quite the performer on film.

 

[jmanivelle]

jonmanjiro, wasn't actually planning on trying that, but since you asked I did.

GR21 looks awful. Obviously because it's a point and shoot, by default the shutter is closed and light doesn't shine through. So I turned off the lights and tripped the shutter for a nice long shutter speed as I shined an LED flashlight through the back of the lens. It instantly became obvious why that haze is showing. The lens lit up white with an even and dense spread of stains(?) almost resembling tiny water droplets. There's the haze.

Anyway, hope that is helpful to someone. Thanks everyone for the input!

Hi, I had haze on a GR21 as well, got it cleaned easily by my local camera repair person. IIRC, he used a piece of black tape on the meter cell of the camera to engage a long shutter speed and look thru the lens. Got my GR1V cleaned also. No more haze since.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Cheers for this... I've had my eyes on one for a while, that I was going to pick up on a trip over. When an online seller (either Ebay or YJA) says it is haze-free, would you take this w/ a grain of salt? Are the GR1v's also prone to the junk above that bsandwich found?

It's probably smarter for me to just get the cheaper 21/4 Skopar and stick it on one of my M-Mount bodies. Cheap lens, and I hear is quite the performer on film.

Definitely would take any description that says "no haze" with a grain of salt, and would specifically request the seller to check by doing the flashlight test. If they refuse or don't reply, stay away.

One of the lenses I saw in person was listed simultaneously on eBay and YJ (edit: still is listed here and here). Both descriptions said no haze and the ebay description even said "Just overhauled, everything is perfect now." The lens turned out to be the worst one I saw. The guy at the shop apologized to me and mentioned the lens had been cleaned but the haze had come back. He later changed the eBay and YJ descriptions to mention the haze but didn't change the price (the ebay auction now says "slight haze won't affect image"... yeah right 🙄).

I've seen a lot of GR28 LTM and GR1/s/v ads that mention haze as well (though that lens design doesn't seem to be quite as prone to haze as the GR21 design). If I was looking to buy one I'd proceed carefully.

Honestly, while the GR21 and GR1/s/v are really great cameras (I've owned both at various times), the lenses are no better than the Voigtlander equivalents. So considering how fragile the cameras are and the prices they sell for these days, they're no longer worth it imo.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Both descriptions said no haze and the ebay description even said "Just overhauled, everything is perfect now." The lens turned out to be the worst one I saw. The guy at the shop apologized to me and mentioned the lens had been cleaned but the haze had come back. He later changed the eBay and YJ descriptions to mention the haze but didn't change the price (the ebay auction now says "slight haze won't affect image"... yeah right 🙄).

YIkes! Good to know. I've not bought from that guy before. I've usually had great luck from Japanese sellers, but games was my forte when I lived there. Had a proxy system so have done thousands of transactions. There's the oddball piece of junk, but for the most part, the grading systems employed in Japan are far stricter. For the games world, this is definitely still the case. Or maybe American sellers on Ebay just suck? Probably both.

That being said, I was more talking about the GR21 PnS, not necessarily the lens. I know the lens is more or less the same. So the haze is basically the same? What's the best way to do this test on the GR1v? I've never looked at it, so not sure if you can get it to leave the shutter open while the back is open.

I've seen a lot of GR28 LTM and GR1/s/v ads that mention haze as well (though that lens design doesn't seem to be quite as prone to haze as the GR21 design). If I was looking to buy one I'd proceed carefully.

I'm actually going next month, and I'm bringing back a few high end PnS's... I've done a decent amount of shooting on my Slim-T the last year. I've definitely gotten my 12,000 yen worth out of it. I don't have GAS, but I feel a more function-friendly PnS would be worth the money. I actually had a friend ship me a T2. I've got a T3 and a TC-1 waiting. Hoping I can get a proper GR1v there and then go through them all w/ a few rolls each (while there is still daylight here) and make an informed decision. I'm in love w/ the controls on the T2... but it kills me that it's 38mm. :| I'm trying to do more 28mm, but the stats on paper of the T3 (despite a step backwards in the controls department)... Guess you can't have your cake and eat it too. Let's face it... I'm likely to keep two of those.

 

[jonmanjiro]

That being said, I was more talking about the GR21 PnS, not necessarily the lens. I know the lens is more or less the same. So the haze is basically the same?

Exact same lens shoehorned into a GR1v body, so exact same haze issues. Most people think the camera came before the LTM lens, but the GR21/3.5 LTM lens was actually released before the GR21, and proved so popular that Ricoh decided to shoehorn the lens into a GR1v body and call it a GR21.

What's the best way to do this test on the GR1v? I've never looked at it, so not sure if you can get it to leave the shutter open while the back is open.

See below:

Obviously because it's a point and shoot, by default the shutter is closed and light doesn't shine through. So I turned off the lights and tripped the shutter for a nice long shutter speed as I shined an LED flashlight through the back of the lens.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Gotcha! Thanks. The variability in price on these guys on that side of the pond seems to reward patience (I guess everything does) but then if I don't time it right I gotta pay for shipping. Rough life, eh?