Ricoh GRX w/ 50mm/2.8 $1636 @ Amazon

kshapero

kshapero

South Florida Man
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For real!! Who's ready to lay that kind of money down? Not me. I think this is not the way to introduce a product.
 
Well it is a dichotomy, a point-and-shoot with interchangeable lenses. You pay more for something like that. Jeez. What did you expect? :D
 
Pickett Wilson said:
With the world economy hurting, seems like cameras makers are responding by creating $1,000+ P&S cameras.
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Well, yes, the economy isn't that strong... but these are luxury items that they don't sell a lot of anyway. Many people still have their jobs. Jobless rates are like 10%... that leaves a lot of people with jobs.
 
Wow that is a heck of a lot of money! Ricoh products have always been a little expensive but this seems a little blind to me. But because Ricoh is not Leica you can expect prices to come down over time, but they cannot expect to be really successful waiting for prices to come down then selling the products.
 
Maybe it is worth the money compared to the X1. The early reviews are less than stellar regarding auto-focus / shutter lag. Of course, the Ricoh is also a contrast based autofocus, so it might just have the same issues.
 
I show $549 for the camera back, plus $839 for the 50-equivalent / APS-C sensor module on my computer screen. That's without the removable EVF, which adds the final $249.

$1379 for only the camera back and the APS-C module is still too much.

Notice that's Amazon's pre-release price without the EVF with no mention of which camera retailer will cover the transaction. The street price will need to come down or this system is toast.

I know that Ricoh is a tiny player, but they need get the price of the camera back down to between $300 and $350. The idea would be to suck you in with a much less expensive back, than the EP-1 or GF1 bodies. Then make the money back with the better prime/sensor combos.

Keep the sensor module with the 3x zoom under $400 and the 50 e / APS-C at around $700 max. Hopefully a 30-e / APS-C module is in the works.

The Olympus EP-1 with zoom is about $800 and the EP-1 with the 17mm/2.8 / optical finder combo is $899. The EP-1 looks to be about the same sized camera, plus it has built-in image stabiliztion.

http://dpnow.com/PHPcode/bigpic.php?filenum=19&articlenum=6532&namebody=gxr&lastfile=19&subpage=
 
kshapero said:
I went for the GX200 for $550. An extra $1100? I don't think so.
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i'd also get the gx200 instead of a gxr with the s10 unit, because it's smaller.

i really hope ricoh didn't go this lens+sensor route just so they could sell small sensors stuck onto compact zooms, even though that's the simplest explanation. i don't want a little sensor!
 
Please explain how you can judge the value of a product prior to any meaningful reports as to function. The few test images were favorable, the fact that it has interchangeable lenses, the large sensor and lower high ISO noise and who knows what else make it look to be a contender and then some with the Leica X1 at a much lower price. What if image quality is on par with the X1 and shutter lag greatly reduced? It does appear that external controls are wanting, so I won't make that argument. It may end up being an outrageous price, much like the X1. We will know in another few weeks.
 
The first company to produce a full frame 35mm equivalent M mount module/camera with EVF focusing under $1500 total wins.

This is not there ... so I won't bite.
 
kshapero said:
I went for the GX200 for $550. An extra $1100? I don't think so.
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All you're saying here is that you wouldn't pay this much for a camera which, frankly, is not that interesting, particularly when you're comparing the price of a camera with a zoom lens and a tiny sensor the size of the nail on your pinky with a camera that has a high-quality prime lens and a large APS-C sensor. And, in a any case, it's premature to make this judgment as the camera is not even out yet and has not been critically reviewed. Also, you're not taking into account the concept of the GXR system with its lens/sensor modules, which will, in itself, command a premium.

There are at least three major advantages of having the sensor and lens in one module, which is a new paradigm for digital cameras:

1. Elimination of the sensor dust problem that comes from changing lenses.

2. Providing the user with the same interface for widely different lens/sensor combinations, which is a great plus because switching between different digital cameras can be confusing: not like switching between two film cameras, like a Leica M and a Nikon F, for example. So, now, one will be able to use different camera formats, while maintaining the same user interface.

3. Optimizing the lens and sensor combination for each lens.

The price issue raised by many people seems to me to be overblown: for some people the advantages of this revolutionary—yes, it is revolutionary—system will be worth a higher price, for others it will not. The success of the GXR will also be determined by how it's implemented: if the various sensor/lens modules do some things very well, and appeal to a market segment in sufficient quantity, the camera system will be successful—the market will decide.

In my view, the GXR will eventually provide, in one camera system, several different formats in terms of sensor size and type, as well as lens type, something for which, otherwise, the user would have to purchase different digital cameras with various lenses, all of which would operate in different ways. In contrast, the GRX will provide one user interface for these various formats and lens types, which is something that I think is highly desirable. And this will be done on the basis of the Ricoh user interface, which is among the best available and on the basis of Ricoh lenses, which are excellent. It seems to me that people that are fixated on price are not recognizing, or don't need, the revolutionary aspects of the GXR system, which, indeed, is not a system designed for the mass market.

Many people are reacting to the 'waste' of the GXR sensor/lens module concept in that, when upgrading to a new sensor, the lens cannot be kept. The Ricoh website has a 14-page brochure on the GXR that explains the rationale for the closed sensor/lens module. Page 4 of the brochure states (in marketing-speak):
Compact, high-performance lens design at a level only possible
 with the interchangeable unit system
:
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
It is the lens that gives life to the photograph. In interchangeable lens
 camera systems up to now, the distance from the mount and the back of the 
lens to the sensor image plane was subject to requirements for flange back
 distance and back focal length. This made it difficult to achieve both
 compactness and high optical performance.

Eliminating the lens mount, however, means that the back focal length can
 be freely defined for the GXR, enabling it to use the most optically
 efficient lens designs with the minimum size. In addition, combining the 
lens and image sensor increases design flexibility so camera units can be
 developed based on a variety of concepts. This practical inspiration has
 given birth to a totally new camera system with portability, high image
 quality and superb expandability and growth potential as a system.
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Thus, it seems to me, that once there is a new sensor, that there will be changes in the lens, as the sensor/lens combination is optimized. That will mitigate the "waste" of getting rid go both the lens and sensor when upgrading. The GXR brochure also elaborates on how the closed sensor/lens module permits optimization:
Designs optimized to make the most of lens and image sensor capabilities
-------------------------------------------------------
In order to make the best use of the inherent power of the lens and the image sensor, the ideal solution is to combine both in a single unit. Consider, for example, the low-pass filter covering the surface of the image sensor.

The dilemma faced is that while the filter helps prevent color noise and color moiré, increasing this benefit results in an ever greater sacrifice in lens resolution. Traditional interchangeable lens systems must use a single low-pass filter for all lenses so they are unable to avoid situations where the filter effect is excessive or inadequate. With the GXR, on the other hand, we can design a low-pass filter optimized for the resolution of the specific lens. In this way, Ricoh has succeeded in effectively preventing color noise while minimizing filter influence on lens resolution.
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So there's a little more at stake here than comparing a small-sensor zoom lens camera price with that of an APS-C with prime lens one.

—Mitch/Bangkok
Walks in Bangkok (GRD3)
 
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If Ricoh had included a APS-C 28 f/2.8 evof lens to create a super GRD without the inherent mechanical weakness of a telescoping mechanism this launch might have been more interesting.
But still nothing compares to the ease of use of a scale focused mechanical helicoid lens. Olympus don't get this nor does Ricoh or the Leica X.

Don't you think that an Epson/Voigtländer M module for the GXR would be a sure winner.

malland said:
This also is not what the GXR system is all about. Why all this inane stuff?

—Mitch/Bangkok
Walks in Bangkok (GRD3)
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FrozenInTime said:
If Ricoh had included a APS-C 28 f/2.8 evof lens to create a super GRD without the inherent mechanical weakness of a telescoping mechanism this launch might have been more interesting.
But still nothing compares to the ease of use of a scale focused mechanical helicoid lens. Olympus don't get this nor does Ricoh or the Leica X.

Don't you think that an Epson/Voigtländer M module for the GXR would be a sure winner.
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But consider that for the GR1 film camera Ricoh made a telescoping lens as well in order to keep the size of the camera down — as that was the market niche that they were addressing.

The idea of an M-mount module is only attractive because Leica is stuck in a time warp that makes them think they have to manufacture or assemble their cameras in Germany. In contrast, Ricoh are deploying both modern micro-electronic design and modern manufacturing technology, with the "hand-made" myth. I'd be quite happy with Ricoh lenses on GXR modules, given Ricoh's the history of the company's lens designs.

—Mitch/Bangkok
Walks in Bangkok (GRD3)
 
The ricoh system looks interesting on the paper! It still is more compact that the four third competitor yet it is an alternative system. It is way more intelligent than the stupid leica X1 which sells even more for a autofocus point and shoot unable to shoot movie.
I won't buy it for sure, but if it was a gift it sure would be great to use as a compact camera!
 
malland said:
1. Elimination of the sensor dust problem that comes from changing lenses.
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well, it doesn't quite eliminate the dust problem. it's just more difficult for dust to get in, and if it does, you can't clean it yourself.

malland said:
2. Providing the user with the same interface for widely different lens/sensor combinations, which is a great plus because switching between different digital cameras can be confusing: not like switching between two film cameras, like a Leica M and a Nikon F, for example. So, now, one will be able to use different camera formats, while maintaining the same user interface.
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or they could have just made an all aps-c system using the same interface, leaving 1/1.7'' sensors for the gr and gx series.

malland said:
3. Optimizing the lens and sensor combination for each lens.
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the samples on dpreview don't look noticeably better than other digital cameras. how much "optimizing" can they really do?
 
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