HHPhoto
Well-known
1. "Scaling down" is not the topic at all. "Scaling up" again is the current topic and problem. The problem both Kodak and Fuji have is that the demand is meanwhile surpassing the supply, which means surpassing their film converting / finishing capacities (slitting the masterrolls, perforating and exposing the film type and numbers, spooling and packaging).
On youtube you will find videos of these processes from the Ilford and Kodak factories (I highly recommend to watch them). You need huge and very complex machinery for that. And building this machinery new and educate new staff to operate it flawlessly is a very big project. That cannot be done "overnight".
2. Fact is that we simply do not know to what extent Ilford is involved in the Acros II production. When Acros II was introduced over at photrio there has been a very interesting thread in which experts from the industry (who have been in the Ilford factory) have explained that it is absolutely possible that Fuji is still making the emulsion and coating by themselves, and that the converting is done by Ilford, or that the emulsion is done by Fuji, and coating and converting are done by Ilford.
It is absolutely possible that Fuji has outsourced some steps because they have the upscaling and converting bottleneck (lower capacity than demand) with their main product color film. So such an outsourcing could take a bit pressure from them.
Extremely unlikely, or more precise: impossible.
Because:
1) So far InovisCoat hasn't produced any standard, high-quality color film. Only experimental color films for Lomography.
It is questionable that they can produce a film on the extremely high quality standard of Fujifilm. When they started their operation about 12 years ago there were some reports about them and interviews with them in the German media. And they explained that they can coat up to 9 layers. But Pro400H has about 20 layers.
2) Pro 400H is a million seller. InovisCoat does not have the capacity to produce so much films p.a.
3) InovisCoat has no converting capacities at all! They can only make emulsions and then coat them on a base material. Not more.
Cheers, Jan
Freakscene
Obscure member
Colour film is stupidly complicated. Fuji Pro 400h has (had?) 14 colour sensitive layers, film base and 2 antihalation and 2 antistatic layers on the reverse side of the film base. It is incredibly technically challenging to produce the product just from a physical perspective. Even the various videos available provide no indication of the technical challenges involved in putting something like this together to the standards that Fuji provides or users expect.
Marty
james.liam
Well-known
Fascinating.
But once the plant and line are built-out and amortized, wouldn't it be the raw material cost that determines practicality of continued manufacturing?
dourbalistar
Buy more film
The sudden demand must have really caught retailers and suppliers by surprise. Quite the change from a few years ago, where some retailers were blowing out in-date Fujicolor 200. 20 rolls of 24-exposure for $39.89 USD, which broke down to about $2.00/roll. I bought 40 rolls at the time, and still have some in my fridge:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165130
farlymac
PF McFarland
I've been a little preoccupied lately, what with all the medical issues I've had, so kind of got behind the curve of this thread. From what I know about film production, there are problems today with sourcing chemicals and certain raw materials used in the production of especially color film, so I'm not seeing how Fujifilm will be bringing back Pro 400H any time soon. They've got their highly popular lines of APS-C cameras to keep them in business, so why gum up the works trying to push something that is starting to cost more than they think it is worth.
That said, I rummaged around the fridge a short while ago, and found one roll of 135/36 exp 2017, and four rolls of 120 exp 2013. Shows you how big a fan I am of the stuff. I may shoot it up before spring is over, but won't really miss it when it's gone. Fresh Fujifilm always looked a little "off" to me, I just wonder how these rolls will come out.
PF
That said, I rummaged around the fridge a short while ago, and found one roll of 135/36 exp 2017, and four rolls of 120 exp 2013. Shows you how big a fan I am of the stuff. I may shoot it up before spring is over, but won't really miss it when it's gone. Fresh Fujifilm always looked a little "off" to me, I just wonder how these rolls will come out.
PF
Freakscene
Obscure member
Sure. There are also energy, marketing and salary costs. In Japan, like other developed countries the energy and salary costs are substantial. There is also maintenance/calibration, which I imagine would be expensive for a colour film coating line. I was pointing out that although Inoviscoat can make film, making 400h is very different to making simpler products. Ultimately, now that Fuji is heavily diversified, product margins will probably determine feasibility - if I could make a COVID vaccine at US$40 a dose or film at $10 a roll I’d be putting my focus on the vaccine if there were any competing interests.
I am curious about Ilford’s involvement in making Acros - it only makes apparent economic sense to me if their input was substantial, although at $US10+/roll retail there is substantially more room to move than for cheaper products.
Marty
HHPhoto
Well-known
No, not alone. As these machines are really absolutely high-tech and extremely sophisticated (just look at the factory visit videos of Ilford and Kodak on youtube, and even better: Read the book 'Making Kodak Film', there it is all explained in detail).
So you need permanent maintenance, repairs, modernisation and re-construction.
And currently also building up of new machinery for film converting (slitting, perforating, spooling, packaging). And training of new employees for that. Because of the strong increasing demand this demand now has surpassed the current converting capacities of Kodak and Fujifilm (explained by them in recent interviews). That is why the Kodak and Fujifilm amateur negative films are so often sold out at the retailers.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
As Fujifilm has explained in their discontinuation statement, the raw material problems with Pro 400H are with the materials for the "4th layer" (which was introduced to correct color casts of fluorescent bulbs).
But this technology is not needed anymore today, as fluorescent bulbs are on their way out. Therefore it would absolutely make sense for Fujifilm to design a successor film of Pro 400H without the 4th layer. That film could even be a bit finer grained and having more sharpness.
The more customers get in contact with them and ask Fujifilm to make such an improved film without the 4th layer (and its raw material problem) the higher the chance of realization. Fujifilm reacted in the past to such demand and requests with Velvia (successor: Velvia 50) and Acros (followed by Acros II).
The mirrorless camera market is in huge decline for many years now, just last year it got down another 25 % (!!). And that decline will continue for more years.
In contrast the film market has significantly increasing demand.
Fujifilm's digital business is also only half the size (in revenue) compared to their silver-halide business.
And Fujifilm's digital camera business and and silver-halide business are completely separated business units. So what the digital guys do has no influence on what the film guys are doing and vice versa.
Cheers, Jan
Mooshoepork
Established
How does one get in touch with who matters at Fuji? I would imagine it would need to go through japan rather than the US guys. The US Labs are already going nuts about it
HHPhoto
Well-known
But there are no competing interests: Fujifilm is organised in many different and completely independent business units, often even sub-companies with own legal status.
Film production for example is not related to their healthcare business (afaik with one exception: X-ray film of the healthcare business is coated in the film plant of the Photo Imaging Division, which is the silver-halide business division).
Even "only" converting of masterrolls to the final end product would be substantial, as it is both a high-quality production step and absolutely needed for the final product.
Cheers, Jan
Mooshoepork
Established
Do you have any source for the general order of steps start to finish? All of this talk of conversion, coating, master rolls etc is a bit confusing.
HHPhoto
Well-known
I have contacted Fujifilm in my country. I have also asked my lab and main film distributor to contact them (and they said they have done it).
So contacting your regional sources is one way to go.
The other one is contacting their 'international' team:
https://linktr.ee/fujifilm_profilm
https://www.ishootfujifilm.com/
https://www.instagram.com/fujifilm_profilm/?hl=de
The more we do, the better.
Even if you don't shoot Fuji, but only Kodak: A healthy competition and product variety is needed in any market! Kodak users are benefitting, too.
A kind of guerilla tactic should help, too: Anytime when they are posting a new picture on instagram, make a comment to that picture that they should listen to their customers and design an improved Pro 400H successor without 4th layer, and re-introduce Superia X-Tra 400 in 120 (because an amateur color negative film is also much wanted in 120, and Fujifilm had offered it until 4-5 years ago).
Cheers, Jan
Freakscene
Obscure member
This book explains the manufacturing process the best:
http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/
And the Ilford factory tour on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/JXpoALotxf0
And other similar tour videos are useful.
Marty
HHPhoto
Well-known
I highly recommend this book:
http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/
And have a look at the following videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXpoALotxf0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIimQ_4mqtQ
And on photrio you will find experts from the industry who are working in these factories, and answer questions, too. For example Ilford and Adox are active there, too.
Film production:
1. You have to make the emulsion (in an emulsion kettle).
2. You have to coat this emulsion on the base material (TAC or PET). After that you have a huge roll (masterroll or parentroll). That is mostly about 1.35m width and about 2.000m long (in general, there are some other sizes, too).
3. From now on the confectioning (also called converting or finishing) starts:
- the masterroll has to be slitted in "pancakes", smaller rolls of the certain film width (35mm, 61.5mm for 120, or the different widths for sheets)
- the pancake has to be cut to film length, the film tongue has to be cut (35mm film)
- that film lenght has to be perforated (35mm) and the numbers have to be exposed
- the film has to be spooled into a 35mm canister, or with 120 film the film has to be combined with the backing paper and then spooled onto the spool
- the spooled films have to packaged.
Cheers, Jan
Freakscene
Obscure member
Irrespective of broader organisation, a head company can raise only so much capital. I am not saying this is definitely the case for Fuji, but when Kodak closed their Melbourne plant in 2004 it was profitable but the US operations, as they were then, were not.
Converting is important, of course, but it is a small proportion of the whole process.
It is unclear how much scaling back has happened at Fuji since peak film in 2003, or in what areas. So it is hard to know what proportion of their factories are used at any given time, or even why they outsourced part(s) of the production process.
Master rolls can be transported: https://www.exportimportstatistics.com/ITC-HS-Code/3702.aspx. But it is expensive. Very expensive. Film is not cask whiskey - you can’t ‘sea age’ it so it has to go in temperature and humidity controlled containers.
I am interested from the perspective of understanding what and why. Obviously Ilford worked out it was feasible and profitable, but it is interesting to contemplate what would be necessary and viable for Fuji and feasible and profitable for Ilford.
As I keep saying, at US$10 a roll, much is possible.
I have done the same, and asked all the local processing labs to let them know too. Fuji 120 colour print film is the biggest loss with this discontinuation, so I am also asking the labs to let Fuji know numbers and trend for 120 film use (it seems to be picking up here).
Marty
HHPhoto
Well-known
But to design a new Pro 400H successor without 4th layer, not much capital is needed. The design without 4th layer is even simpler, and production costs can be lower, too.
Fujifilm already did exactly that some years ago with Superia 200 and 400, and removed the 4th layer. So nothing new for them at all.
You are underestimating the importance of converting. Let's have an example:
You are coating film for just one single day, with two masterrolls per hour (it is even more in reality). That makes 24 masterrolls with 1.35m width and 2.000m lengths.
That makes 64.800 m². From that you can make 1.1 million film rolls of format 135-36.
The converting lines for 135 film at Kodak, Fuji, Ilford can convert 1 film per second (easily seen in the factory videos). That makes 28.800 135 films per day in a normal 8h shift.
For your 1.1 million rolls you have coated in just one single day you would therefore need moren than one month (!) - 38 days to be precise - to convert them all.
So you see that film converting is the bottleneck in the production chain. It is really a crucial step.
The following is known about scaling down at Fujifilm:
1. They closed film production in Tilburg, Netherlands in 2008. In that factory only amateur color negative film for the European market was produced. And RA-4 photo paper. The RA-4 photo paper production has continued. This factory is delivering the European market with real silver-based RA-4 photo paper.
AFAIK they also stopped film production at their factory in the US.
But they continued to produce RA-4 photo paper in the US for the American market.
2. They have scaled down at their Japanese film factory, too, as they can make lower volume niche film products like their Fujichrome films or S100 and Pro 160 NS negative film, which are for the Japanese market only.
But that isn't such a big problem at all. Agfa Germany has for decades done the whole film and photo paper converting in a separate factory which was far away from their coating plant. All masterrolls had to be shipped, and at that time film production was at its peak! So they shipped thousands of masterrolls of film and photo paper every year, also across borders.
Polaroid is today doing the same, by the way: Their masterrolls are coated in Germany by their daugther company Inovisproject, and the finishing is done in their factory in the Netherlands, Enschede.
And Adox is shipping coated masterrolls from their factory in Switzerland to their headquarter in Germany, where the converting lines are.
For Fujifilm shipping Acros II masterrolls to Ilford for converting wouldn't be a problem. You can put several huge masterrolls in one cooled container. And you would need such a shipment only in a 2-3 year rhythm. ISO 100 BW film is extremely stable, so you can use a coating schedule with longer time spans.
It was reported when Agfa Germany closed that they did BW coating runs in a 1.5 year rhythm. So such longer time schedules are well known in the industry.
The cooperation certainly make sense for both Fuji and Ilford, otherwise they would not do it.
My labs and film distributors in Germany all have told me demand is significantly up,for all film brands, including Fujifilm. Pro 400H has seen much increasing demand since 2018, they all told me.
I am convinced that contacting Fuji on multiple ways and channels and asking for an improved (without 4th layer) successor makes sense and is the best we can do. As here on rff and in many other photo groups other photographers have suggestes that before and I completely agree with them.
Cheers, Jan
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
Marty, Jan,
Thank you both for contributing. It’s helpful.
Thank you both for contributing. It’s helpful.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
For what it’s worth (admittedly, not much) I did receive 5x5 packs of 120 400H yesterday from Adorama, though the 135 rolls I ordered from them at the same time (immediately after the announced discontinuation) are not apparently forthcoming. This was all at the pre-scare pricing). I did source some 135 out of Japan which was shipped yesterday, but it’s apparently scarce. It was priced “too high” though below current Amazon or ebay pricing.
Freestyle has apparently been getting a few rolls of 135 in, small customer limits, periodically, or so I have been told. So, there may be some still dribbling out for a while, 120 more than 135 apparently, but you’re going to need to really be jonesing for it to swallow the cost. Most people aren’t, understandably, though I was.
Freestyle has apparently been getting a few rolls of 135 in, small customer limits, periodically, or so I have been told. So, there may be some still dribbling out for a while, 120 more than 135 apparently, but you’re going to need to really be jonesing for it to swallow the cost. Most people aren’t, understandably, though I was.
farlymac
PF McFarland
Thanks, Jan. It's kind of hard to understand what is going on until I come here to find out.
PF
astrobuoy
Established
I'm just going to put this here to share the wealth, if anyone's interested. Unique Photo has both 35mm and 120 of 400h in stock, for who knows how long. It's not cheap, but it's not as price-gougey as other places I've seen. Do with this what you will.
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/fujifilmpro400h1353615942186
https://www.uniquephoto.com/fujifilm-film/fujipro400h120400asa15473599
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/fujifilmpro400h1353615942186
https://www.uniquephoto.com/fujifilm-film/fujipro400h120400asa15473599