Rockwell's image of M3 is 1K$ worth!

[PKR]

"He lectures at one of the big, famous, expensive Art schools in our city."

I think the cirriculum needs changing a little...

Certain concerpts about making money from other people's efforts need to be included or emphassised and a bit about the legal side of things, f'intance.

Talking of that, I thought that in the USA you could get a minimum of US$750 for copyright theft but it's some time since I had a punch up with Americans scanning my stuff and selling it on.

Regards, David

David; I was told by one of these students, that it's possible to get a BFA in Photography, from this "University", without ever taking a single picture. There are enough PhotoShop classes to qualify for a photography major. He told me that image theft within the class (students) is rampant. He said, that there were a handful of kids with real talent, and the others ripped them off constantly. He said, the staff was aware that this was happening and did nothing.

It's all about those tuition checks from mom and dad .. and little else, it seems.

 

[PKR]

Too bad her parents weren't there to hear that... I bet they're paying the bills!

Yeah, it seems an attitude that many young people have these days. The other phrase I hear, one that was used over and over, by these kids is/was "..you have to!". They are so used to being accommodated that, they don't know what to do when facing a refusal. This girl just got really angry. She actually told me earlier that .. "you owe us". They are taught this stuff. I grew up never thinking that anyone, including my parents, owed me anything. It's a huge difference in generational attitude. Also, I have to note, there are some really hard working and talented students in this mix of kids. They don't seem to share the attitude. The School's department head told me that, those (hard workers with talent) students were about 6% of the current average class of more than 100.

He also said, "We are babysitting the children of the rich".

 

[ptpdprinter]

I was told by one of these students, that it's possible to get a BFA in Photography, from this "University", without ever taking a single picture.

And their goal upon graduation is what?

 

[PKR]

And their goal upon graduation?

I was on my way outa here.. you caught me.

Well, I don't know. My pal has had two of the 6% work for him as assistants. I knew one of them pretty well. A truly nice and talented kid. His parents are both very successful southern California architects. He was a hard worker. He got around town on a bicycle. The new one is pretty quiet. He also seems nice. He's a very skilled PhotoShop hand. He drives a BMW. I think his parents paid for it.. just my guess.

I don't talk to these kids. Some other photographers in town refuse to interview them. One told me he was floored by the demanding attitudes of the ones he spoke with.

There are 3 big art schools in our city. The local junior college also has a photography program. Those JC kids are taught studio lighting, a real plus for assistant work.

They all want photography jobs. Mostly, beginning as photo assistants.

Edit
In thinking about those two assistants (you got me thinking), rating them in creativity, they are both hard workers, the first kid would get a 9-10 out of 10. The second one, the BMW kid, gets a 5. I think he's a copier .. not an image thief, but a recipe user. I think he would be afraid to try something new. Challenge himself. Could be wrong.. that would be good.

 

[michaelwj]

They all want photography jobs. Mostly, beginning as photo assistants.

Edit
In thinking about those two assistants (you got me thinking), rating them in creativity, they are both hard workers, the first kid would get a 9-10 out of 10. The second one, the BMW kid, gets a 5. I think he's a copier .. not an image thief, but a recipe user. I think he would be afraid to try something new. Challenge himself. Could be wrong.. that would be good.

Does anyone else find it bizarre? They think that everything should be had for free, yet they want jobs in the industry? Where do they think their paycheque is going to come from? All the free stuff they give away?

 

[sepiareverb]

Edit
In thinking about those two assistants (you got me thinking), rating them in creativity, they are both hard workers, the first kid would get a 9-10 out of 10. The second one, the BMW kid, gets a 5. I think he's a copier .. not an image thief, but a recipe user. I think he would be afraid to try something new. Challenge himself. Could be wrong.. that would be good.

In my experience teaching at a state college for 15 years even this kind of criticism is no longer acceptable in academia, and there is part of the problem.

 

[Paul T.]

Does anyone else find it bizarre? They think that everything should be had for free, yet they want jobs in the industry? Where do they think their paycheque is going to come from? All the free stuff they give away?

If we're shifting into a discussion around the fact that the younger generation are freeloaders, we should at least acknowledge the fact that their parents' generation spent all the money and loaded them with debt.

In the UK, kids are being loaded with £50k of debt for an education, imposed on them by people who had the same for free.

 

[Roger Hicks]

If we're shifting into a discussion around the fact that the younger generation are freeloaders, we should at least acknowledge the fact that their parents' generation spent all the money and loaded them with debt.

In the UK, kids are being loaded with £50k of debt for an education, imposed on them by people who had the same for free.

Dear Paul,

Did we "spend all the money" though? Or did we (and everyone else) vote on balance for unrealistically low taxes? Note "on balance" because quite a lot of us made the fairly simple connection between taxes and public goods.

Again, did "we" all support the frankly risible idea of keeping kids in compulsory education until the age of 18? It's great them as wants it, but many don't, and won't benefit anyway (I taught for a few years, and I've seen 'em)

Or the idea that 50% of the population should go to university? The present system strikes me as far more "elitist" than in 1969, when I went to university -- and a damn' sight more depressing, too, with the vast debt.

Cheers,

R.

 

[PKR]

In my experience teaching at a state college for 15 years even this kind of criticism is no longer acceptable in academia, and there is part of the problem.

As a potential employer, I have a bit more freedom, for now. Things could change as per local politics, i guess. Little would surprise me these days.

Being smart, creative and willing to work hard, makes you a target in some academic environments. In a Physics class, you're a perfect lab partner. In an art class, you make some classmates look bad.

 

[Bille]

As such, I can only recommend people on our Film FB page move elsewhere for there purchases

Not defending Adorama and whatever they do but I have a feeling they won´t panic when the remaining five film photographers start buying their 2 rolls a month somewhere else... 😛

 

[jsrockit]

Our conversation ended with the following from this student (verbatim, I won't forget it): "You're old, you don't get it. Everything is free now. Get a clue!"

Oh, once university is over...they will get a clue as well. 😉 ... Not many people make it the appropriation game that are this clueless.

 

[PKR]

Oh, once university is over...they will get a clue as well. 😉 ... Not many people make it the appropriation game that are this clueless.

Most of these kids, the ones who want work, can be found at the numerous Starbucks, making or serving drinks. I don't frequent Starbucks but, I've heard reports from the working photo assistants. I found most of these kids to be pretty angry.

With my pal's old assistant, I found we could talk about a lot of subjects, the many years separating our ages wasn't apparent. On many things (mostly the painters we liked) we didn't agree, but I always enjoyed our conversations. I hope that kid does well. He's very talented and willing to stick his neck out, creatively.

I didn't have a fancy education. Most of the photographers I know didn't. But, I have two friends who worked for Penn and one who worked for Avedon. That's about the best photo schooling possible. Very few qualified for entrance. People who have worked for those friends are very lucky.

 

[michaelwj]

I didn't have a fancy education. Most of the photographers I know didn't. But, I have two friends who worked for Penn and one who worked for Avedon. That's about the best photo schooling possible. Very few qualified for entrance. People who have worked for those friends are very lucky.

Photography is not my field professionally, but in the field that I'm in (experimental physics) education is pretty much meaningless except for two things; it shows you can tackle a large project (PhD) and that you can stick with something for a few years. It's just a barrier to entry (you must have a PhD to apply for the job). Other than that, what you really want is what can't be assessed and isn't taught. I want post-docs to be creative, have good spatial perception, and be hard working. Everything else can be learnt on the job pretty easily.

So my question is, do aspiring photographers need a degree to be an assistant for one of the big photographers, or is it more of a "who you know" type scenario? When you talk about being "qualified for entrance" are you talking about formal qualifications, or more informal qualifications (like being hard working and willing to learn, not being a jerk, etc.)?

 

[NaChase]

I don't know whether this quote is accurate or not but apparently Socrates said this:

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

Seems some things never change. For instance, I, a 29-year-old millennial, look upon Generation Z in the same baleful way my own generation is viewed by its predecessors. Get off my lawn.

 

[PKR]

Photography is not my field professionally, but in the field that I'm in (experimental physics) education is pretty much meaningless except for two things; it shows you can tackle a large project (PhD) and that you can stick with something for a few years. It's just a barrier to entry (you must have a PhD to apply for the job). Other than that, what you really want is what can't be assessed and isn't taught. I want post-docs to be creative, have good spatial perception, and be hard working. Everything else can be learnt on the job pretty easily.

So my question is, do aspiring photographers need a degree to be an assistant for one of the big photographers, or is it more of a "who you know" type scenario? When you talk about being "qualified for entrance" are you talking about formal qualifications, or more informal qualifications (like being hard working and willing to learn, not being a jerk, etc.)?

The portfolio is the credential.

Many portfolios are kept under wraps, only to be shown to prospective clients. Much work is on websites but, many of us deliver samples on a thumb drive avoiding the web.

Any student (anyone) photographer looking for a job will have a portfolio and resume.

The photos in a portfolio will tell the story of the photographer's creative ability and technical skill. The resume will outline previous work experience. Formal schooling isn't necessary. It's all in the eye. If I was going to school with the idea of being a photographer today, I would major in math (so I could get a job out of school) and minor in Art History and languages.

Photo assistants come in levels that have to do with their technical skill and experience. Many photographers (people like Penn) have several assistants. The tiered progression would be: Studio Manager, 1st assistant, and those below .. some may be full time employees or contract hires. Some of the best and most expensive assistants are contract hires. They like variety and often have specialized skills.

I can tell you about me.. I know that material best.

I had a couple of photo classes in college. I was an unsatisfied science student. I built a portfolio over several years. I didn't have much camera gear but managed. I had access to a couple of darkrooms and made prints.

I landed an assistant's job with NatGeo, working in Italy. When I returned to the States I was hired for an 18 month assignment documenting the living conditions of Native Americans. It didn't pay well but, I enhanced my portfolio of work greatly. I did several memorable portraits, and that stayed with me.

I then worked in a very large professional photo lab as the Tech. My math science skills got me that job, not my pictures. After about a year, I made a deal with the boss, to get time off to do photo work in exchange for not paying me any over time. My overtime hours were accumulated and used for week days off. I used the days off to show my portfolio to graphic designers and art directors.

I began getting jobs and saved the money and bought additional camera gear for work use. After a year of this, I found I needed to learn lighting in a serious way. I showed my book (portfolio) to Irving Penn's former studio manager and I got lucky. I wanted to learn Penn's lighting and found a place to learn it. I worked there off and on for two years, while taking occasional assignments. Some of the art directors I met while working for Penn's former employee hired me once I was off on my own.

I worked very hard, I learned about a lot of stuff I would never use (8x10), but got good at it; it was my job to be good at everything needed. I was an ace at sorting cornflakes for food shots.. stuff like that.

I look for the same stuff in someone I would consider hiring. The assistant I had most recently was a grad of Brooks Institute, before it went into the dumper. Her dad did electronics and other tech work, so she's great with tools and lighting hardware.

One former assistant is a very successful food photographer. She too was a Brooks grad.

Hope that helps, I'm tired of writing.
I spent some time in, what was then called, UC LBL Bldg.51... if you know that place? I wish I had taken photos when the Bev was down. Math is still a hobby.
pkr

 

[Sumarongi]

I don't know whether this quote is accurate or not but apparently Socrates said this:

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

No, not accurate. We know for certain that it was a *comedy character* called Socrates who said this (*if* the *authentic* Socrates uttered this, then it would certainly have been *jokingly*); see: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Youth#Misattributed

Seems some things never change. For instance, I, a 29-year-old millennial, look upon Generation Z in the same baleful way my own generation is viewed by its predecessors. Get off my lawn.

Usually it's the direct generation before us or after us that we have issues with; with our grandparents and our grandchildren we have a lot to agree; foremost perhaps the notion that always the one generation inbetween are half-morons, I suppose 😉

 

[David Hughes]

David; I was told by one of these students, that it's possible to get a BFA in Photography, from this "University", without ever taking a single picture. There are enough PhotoShop classes to qualify for a photography major. He told me that image theft within the class (students) is rampant. He said, that there were a handful of kids with real talent, and the others ripped them off constantly. He said, the staff was aware that this was happening and did nothing.

It's all about those tuition checks from mom and dad .. and little else, it seems.

Well, um, I dunno; there was a time when to get to university you had to be in the top 3 or so per cent and would come out with a thorough understanding of the knowledge you've gained. But I'm told that these days some degrees are about the level of an "A" level in the 50's and - as you say - only awarded for turning up and not burning the place down.

A few years ago someone we know with a (proper) degree in maths etc* applied for a job as a maths teacher and was told that the job had gone but would they like to teach German or some other language they didn't speak or even know about...

Now, I realise, that the generation that didn't really get a degree are teaching and the heads are (I really, really hope) the only ones with a proper degree.

It's worrying that you can get a degree with ripped off work.

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes]

SNIP ...The School's department head told me that, those (hard workers with talent) students were about 6% of the current average class of more than 100.

He also said, "We are babysitting the children of the rich".

These are the ones who would have got a degree, once upon a time; Roger had something to say about it too.

A friend of mine gave up teaching years ago as she said she was tired of being paid like an entertainer at a kid's birthday party to keep them quiet for a while... (Those weren't her exact words but sensitive people might be reading this and we don't want to get RFF banned... )

Regards, David

 

[Paul T.]

Ah, I long for the days when older folk didn't believe that vague, hearsay anecdotes demonstrated academic rigour and the superiority of their own generation.

At least in the old days they complained with style:

In a speech to the House of Commons on February 28, 1843, Anthony Ashley Cooper, the 7th Earl of Shaftesbury, ranted:

...a fearful multitude of untutored savages... [boys] with dogs at their heels and other evidence of dissolute habits...[girls who] drive coal-carts, ride astride upon horses, drink, swear, fight, smoke, whistle, and care for nobody...the morals of children are tenfold worse than formerly.

(and incidentally, the science is pretty unequivocal: our kids are smarter than us. Average IQs have been going up for decades).

 

[David Hughes]

Photography is not my field professionally, but in the field that I'm in (experimental physics) education is pretty much meaningless except for two things; it shows you can tackle a large project (PhD) and that you can stick with something for a few years. It's just a barrier to entry (you must have a PhD to apply for the job). Other than that, what you really want is what can't be assessed and isn't taught. I want post-docs to be creative, have good spatial perception, and be hard working. Everything else can be learnt on the job pretty easily.

So my question is, do aspiring photographers need a degree to be an assistant for one of the big photographers, or is it more of a "who you know" type scenario? When you talk about being "qualified for entrance" are you talking about formal qualifications, or more informal qualifications (like being hard working and willing to learn, not being a jerk, etc.)?

Hmmm, i see a degree course as 3 years of solid study and work, followed by an exam. So how do they drag out teaching photography to occupy that much time?

And with digital would we recognise what they are being taught? Assuming they are being taught and not being set assignments (AKA find out for yourself).

As for standards, look on ebay at the photo's they turn out when selling and claiming they know nothing about photography...

Regards, David

PS I've heard of people getting their dogs credits and professional qualifications, it makes you wonder. I'm thinking of that story about the musician's dog that the conductor objected to in rehearsals and saying it needed to be qualified (amongst many other things) and so it was... (BBC Radio 3 years ago).