sbug
Acceptably Sharp
Well, I've finally developed a couple of rolls of Tri-X in Rodinal after exclusively using Diafine for 7+ months. I LOVE Diafine but I don't need the speed bump when it's bright and sunny out and I've heard plenty of good things about Rodinal. Anyhow, my first try was a poorly managed stand development. So, my second roll was strictly by the box. 1:50, 12 minutes, constant agitation for the first minute, 5 seconds of every 30 seconds thereafter. I agitated fairly gently. What I got back is much more grainy than expected. Plus I got the funny light edges at the top and bottom of several frames where the film is in contact with the spool. I have not had these issues w/Diafine.
What am I doing wrong? Gentler agitation? Inversions rather than agitation? Shorter developing times? Longer? I want to like this stuff but so far I'm not getting the results I am hoping for.
The attached shot is aesthetically boring as drying paint but it shows the light top and bottom edges and the grain. The grain is much more noticeable of course when I don't compress the shot for the web so I have attached a crop that is not resized from the original scan.
What am I doing wrong? Gentler agitation? Inversions rather than agitation? Shorter developing times? Longer? I want to like this stuff but so far I'm not getting the results I am hoping for.
The attached shot is aesthetically boring as drying paint but it shows the light top and bottom edges and the grain. The grain is much more noticeable of course when I don't compress the shot for the web so I have attached a crop that is not resized from the original scan.
Attachments
Sisyphus
Sisyphus
No replies ok here it goes: This is the only combination I have been using for the past 17 years, so I feel I have some experience. Everyone has there own method for processing their film, all are valid methods, you just need to find your groove.
Ok I go agains the norm on the board meaning that I process my film 1:25.
Here is my process:
1) Use metal tanks and reels
1a) Use a digital $75.00 thermometer from B&H, or the kodak 40.00 glass thermometer--they are far more accurate than the metal dial ones.
2) Presoak your film in permawash agitating-inversing the tank for one minute
3) Wash your film in water at 68 degrees or a slight bit cooler with agitiatation--inverting the tank upside down and rightside up for one minute.
4) Rodinal 1:25 in a four reel 32 ounce tank 1 and one quarter ounce to 30 ounces of water at 65 degrees--this is important because I notice my grain is considerably larger if my developer is warmer.
5) process your film for a total of 10 minutes:
Agitate for 1 minute then 5 seconds evey 30 seconds, Agitation needs to be semi strong, consistant, and steady. and then tap the bottom of the tank after each agitation.
6) dump the developer, wash with water, with constant agitation, at 68 degrees or slightly cooler this is important because if your rinsing water is warmer it can effect grain size.
7) proceed to fix, then rinse, permawash, rinse look at the negs, jump for joy or cry, proceed to wash, photoflo, hang to dry,
now rodinal is known for enlarging the grain, however, it is supposed to be sharp.
The metal tanks and consistant agitation should take care of that edge softness you are referring to.
Also, if you are not happy with the contrast, you can always go back and selenium tone your negs.
ok good luck, I hope this helps!
Ok I go agains the norm on the board meaning that I process my film 1:25.
Here is my process:
1) Use metal tanks and reels
1a) Use a digital $75.00 thermometer from B&H, or the kodak 40.00 glass thermometer--they are far more accurate than the metal dial ones.
2) Presoak your film in permawash agitating-inversing the tank for one minute
3) Wash your film in water at 68 degrees or a slight bit cooler with agitiatation--inverting the tank upside down and rightside up for one minute.
4) Rodinal 1:25 in a four reel 32 ounce tank 1 and one quarter ounce to 30 ounces of water at 65 degrees--this is important because I notice my grain is considerably larger if my developer is warmer.
5) process your film for a total of 10 minutes:
Agitate for 1 minute then 5 seconds evey 30 seconds, Agitation needs to be semi strong, consistant, and steady. and then tap the bottom of the tank after each agitation.
6) dump the developer, wash with water, with constant agitation, at 68 degrees or slightly cooler this is important because if your rinsing water is warmer it can effect grain size.
7) proceed to fix, then rinse, permawash, rinse look at the negs, jump for joy or cry, proceed to wash, photoflo, hang to dry,
now rodinal is known for enlarging the grain, however, it is supposed to be sharp.
The metal tanks and consistant agitation should take care of that edge softness you are referring to.
Also, if you are not happy with the contrast, you can always go back and selenium tone your negs.
ok good luck, I hope this helps!
Sisyphus
Sisyphus
one more thing: if you are curious to see my results. please visit my web and my blog:
http://www.robinsonphotos.com/
http://unguided-tour.blogspot.com/
the 6x6 images on the web is tri-x with rodinal
everything posted on the blog is all tri-x and rodinal.
http://www.robinsonphotos.com/
http://unguided-tour.blogspot.com/
the 6x6 images on the web is tri-x with rodinal
everything posted on the blog is all tri-x and rodinal.
Bryce
Well-known
Your uneven development problem, i.e. underdeveloped areas at the top and bottom of the frame are related to agitation. I think I've noticed that too short an agitation period at the beginning of the cycle is usually to blame. You'll have to experiment to make it get better.
The grain may be normal, but it can be aggravated by too long development (I find AGFA's times much too long for wet printing) and also grain aliasing in film scanners.
If you can print the negative on paper in an enlarger, then flatbed scan the print you'll get much better results.
Generally speaking, you want to develop negs for grade 2 or 3 paper, and the times AGFA gives will leave you using grade 0 or 1.
The grain may be normal, but it can be aggravated by too long development (I find AGFA's times much too long for wet printing) and also grain aliasing in film scanners.
If you can print the negative on paper in an enlarger, then flatbed scan the print you'll get much better results.
Generally speaking, you want to develop negs for grade 2 or 3 paper, and the times AGFA gives will leave you using grade 0 or 1.
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
Well, first definately use a two minute pre-wash of plain water at exactly the temperature of the developer. This will allow the emulsion to swell slightly before the developer hits it, and will stabilize the temp. You will get better consistency and more even development. I use a two minute pre-wet with all developers- except Diafine and otehr compensating two-bath devs. Agitate for the first 45 seconds, then 5 secs in the second minute.
Second, Rodinal is a grainy developer- there's really no way around this. But remember grain and sharpness basically go hand in hand- you can get the greatest sharpness out of your film, but it will show some grain; or you can get the finest grain, but you'll sacrifice some degree of sharpness. Rodinal's real strength is it's long tonal range, combined with very good sharpness- but it will show some grain. Personally, I like it, as long as it's not too much. The more you dilute Rodinal, the more the grain is controlled, to a point. I like 1:50 or 1:100 best. I agitate for the first 45 seconds, then 5 seconds per minute. My agitation is to combine inversions with tank rotation- I get four inversions per five seconds. I have tried stand development with Rodinal, but I've come to the conclusion that for me, stand dev'ing in Rodinal works best for pushing film- and for pushing, I'd rather use other developers.
Back to your questions- I suspect the over-development issue you are seeing at the top and bottom of your frames is due to over agitation, or agitating too vigorously. Be gentle- not limp wristed, but don't shake the tank; and I think your first whole minute of agitation is really too much, and I suspect your regulart agitation technique might be too powerful. Back it down a little.
Rodinal is a great developer, and I use it for at least 50% of my film, from 35mm to 8x10. But as with any technique or chemistry you are unfamiliar with, you have to experiment a little to get the best out of it. Take really careful notes, and only change one variable at a time, especially once you start to zero-in on your procedure. Diafine is a very nice developer, but I use it only in specific situations. For me, it's best when I'm are a little bit all over the map with my exposures and E.I.'s. I think you can always get better results from other soups, if you are very careful. I use Diafine only when I have old unprocessed film lying around (this happens more often than I'd like to admit), and/or I have lost track of the specific E.I.'s, or am otherwise unsure of how I want to run a given roll. In these situations, I know Diafine will always yeild a printable negative; but when I'm paying attention to what I'm doing, I'll soup in Rodinal (slow speeds) or Microphen (serious pushing time) or something else, and get better negatives than Diafine normally gives.
Second, Rodinal is a grainy developer- there's really no way around this. But remember grain and sharpness basically go hand in hand- you can get the greatest sharpness out of your film, but it will show some grain; or you can get the finest grain, but you'll sacrifice some degree of sharpness. Rodinal's real strength is it's long tonal range, combined with very good sharpness- but it will show some grain. Personally, I like it, as long as it's not too much. The more you dilute Rodinal, the more the grain is controlled, to a point. I like 1:50 or 1:100 best. I agitate for the first 45 seconds, then 5 seconds per minute. My agitation is to combine inversions with tank rotation- I get four inversions per five seconds. I have tried stand development with Rodinal, but I've come to the conclusion that for me, stand dev'ing in Rodinal works best for pushing film- and for pushing, I'd rather use other developers.
Back to your questions- I suspect the over-development issue you are seeing at the top and bottom of your frames is due to over agitation, or agitating too vigorously. Be gentle- not limp wristed, but don't shake the tank; and I think your first whole minute of agitation is really too much, and I suspect your regulart agitation technique might be too powerful. Back it down a little.
Rodinal is a great developer, and I use it for at least 50% of my film, from 35mm to 8x10. But as with any technique or chemistry you are unfamiliar with, you have to experiment a little to get the best out of it. Take really careful notes, and only change one variable at a time, especially once you start to zero-in on your procedure. Diafine is a very nice developer, but I use it only in specific situations. For me, it's best when I'm are a little bit all over the map with my exposures and E.I.'s. I think you can always get better results from other soups, if you are very careful. I use Diafine only when I have old unprocessed film lying around (this happens more often than I'd like to admit), and/or I have lost track of the specific E.I.'s, or am otherwise unsure of how I want to run a given roll. In these situations, I know Diafine will always yeild a printable negative; but when I'm paying attention to what I'm doing, I'll soup in Rodinal (slow speeds) or Microphen (serious pushing time) or something else, and get better negatives than Diafine normally gives.
oscroft
Veteran
I haven't tried Tri-X, but I do use Rodinal. So here's a few thoughts that might help...
I use 1:25 at 20C (8 minutes for Delta-400 - I'd expect Tri-X to be similar if not the same).
I agitate fairly gently (I use the stirrer thing, because my tanks leak if I invert them and developer runs up my arm) for 1 minute at the start, then 10 seconds every minute rather than 5 seconds every 30.
I always apply unsharp mask after I scan (you'd need to experiment with your own scanner and software). By comparing the scan with a close examination of the negative with a loupe, I can see that if I don't apply unsharp mask the grain in the scan looks more pronounced (due to the aliasing effect that you get when your scanning pixel resolution hits up against the film grain size).
I use 1:25 at 20C (8 minutes for Delta-400 - I'd expect Tri-X to be similar if not the same).
I agitate fairly gently (I use the stirrer thing, because my tanks leak if I invert them and developer runs up my arm) for 1 minute at the start, then 10 seconds every minute rather than 5 seconds every 30.
I always apply unsharp mask after I scan (you'd need to experiment with your own scanner and software). By comparing the scan with a close examination of the negative with a loupe, I can see that if I don't apply unsharp mask the grain in the scan looks more pronounced (due to the aliasing effect that you get when your scanning pixel resolution hits up against the film grain size).
Xmas
Veteran
Dont use Tri-x with Rodinal unless you like grain, If you want to use 400 use a tabular (for slightly less grain). Rodinal is not a D-76 equivalent, it is only for 100 asa or less, it is for razor edges.
Noel
P.S. I like the grain
Noel
P.S. I like the grain
mcgrattan
Well-known
I've always found the key with Rodinal (and similar developers like R09) is to go easy on the agitation. I agitate quite a bit less than others on this thread.
I would make sure the Rodinal is thoroughly mixed before I pour it into the tank, I do this while letting the film soak in 20 degree water. Also, I would only do constant agitation for the first 15 - 30 seconds. Then, thereafter, just a couple of gentle inversions/rotations at the start of each minute. Maybe 10 seconds agitation each minute, no more.
Too much agitation with Rodinal = grain.
I much prefer it at 1:50 or stand developed at 1:100 or 1:200 if I am not doing normal agitation.
[To be honest, these days I use other developers for normal processing, but I used to really like the Rodinal 1:50 + Classic Pan combination]
I would make sure the Rodinal is thoroughly mixed before I pour it into the tank, I do this while letting the film soak in 20 degree water. Also, I would only do constant agitation for the first 15 - 30 seconds. Then, thereafter, just a couple of gentle inversions/rotations at the start of each minute. Maybe 10 seconds agitation each minute, no more.
Too much agitation with Rodinal = grain.
I much prefer it at 1:50 or stand developed at 1:100 or 1:200 if I am not doing normal agitation.
[To be honest, these days I use other developers for normal processing, but I used to really like the Rodinal 1:50 + Classic Pan combination]
thwap
Newbie
sbug said:
Hi,
what we see here, not so much on the first shot, but definitely on the second one with the barn, is not only the usual film grain, but reticulation. That happens when the temperatures of the chemicals differ too much.
Michael
Xmas
Veteran
Mich
It is the same shot and the grain is nice, the scanner is aliasing on the grain, all you can do is alter the dig processing or use finer grain film, or solvent dev.
Noel
It is the same shot and the grain is nice, the scanner is aliasing on the grain, all you can do is alter the dig processing or use finer grain film, or solvent dev.
Noel
nikola
Well-known
Sysphus.... wonderful... 
V
varjag
Guest
Also, Tri-X at 400 in Rodinal is actually a push, with overemphasized grain and contrast. Try it at EI 200-250, it scans easier and grain is much better controlled.
P C Headland
Well-known
Mine don't come out that grainy (TriX @ 400 in Rodinal)!
I think the key to Rodinal is to go easy with the agitation. I do five inversions in 15s at the start of the first three minutes, then one inversion every three minutes if using 1+100, or one inversion every minute when using 1+50. The inversion is like a slow windcreen wiper action.
Keep the temperature a constant 20C during the whole process.
I think the key to Rodinal is to go easy with the agitation. I do five inversions in 15s at the start of the first three minutes, then one inversion every three minutes if using 1+100, or one inversion every minute when using 1+50. The inversion is like a slow windcreen wiper action.
Keep the temperature a constant 20C during the whole process.
Sisyphus
Sisyphus
Wordpress and Nicola,
Wordpress, thanks for the plugging my blog . . .
Thank you both for the kind remarks and taking the time to look! I really appreciate it . . .
I am still working on my website, I know it is not up to par, but I am working on it!
thanks again!
Wordpress, thanks for the plugging my blog . . .
Thank you both for the kind remarks and taking the time to look! I really appreciate it . . .
I am still working on my website, I know it is not up to par, but I am working on it!
thanks again!
Xmas
Veteran
sbug
Did you tell your scanner it was a grain film and not a chromogenic?
Noel
Did you tell your scanner it was a grain film and not a chromogenic?
Noel
sbug
Acceptably Sharp
OK, I've got some good suggestions to try next time. I will pre-soak for starters. I've gotten out of that step due to my Diafine habit. I will agiatate a bit more gently and slightly reduce the developing times. I will also watch my temps a bit closer. As for the scanner settings, I frankly don't know. I have a good quality lab scan for me. My Tri-X/Diafine stuff comes back nice so I don't see that they'd change the settings on me. They don't know what developer I'm using anyway. I know Tri-X and Diafine can yield better results just from looking at Bud green's work.
Thanks for all the suggestions and nice blog Sisyphus!
Thanks for all the suggestions and nice blog Sisyphus!
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
First of all, Thomas' (Sisyphus) works shows that using Rodinal in a manner completely different (nearly opposite) to mine works really, really well. Those shots (which are superb in terms of composition and execution, not just technically) look more like the TX @200 in HC-110 which used to be my standard.
What I really like now is Tri-X @250 in Rodinal 1:100, 20 min., 30 sec initial agitation and 5 seconds every three minutes thereafter. I.e., I subscribe to the minimalist school of agitation when it comes to Rodinal. I don't have any current work scanned at this time to show, but this yields a really nice looking neg with good grain and tonal characteristics. It is perhaps less "gutsy" than the negs Thomas gets, but neither is "right" except as they support the type of images and the emotion being conveyed.
One thing I do agree with is that the Tri-X/Rodinal combination (at least at higher dilutions) needs more exposure than "box speed". I believe that the "new" Tri-X is about 1/3 stop faster than the Tri-X of 15 or more years ago. I have seen Tri-X @ 800 work really well in Rodinal, but of course the regimen is different.
What I really like now is Tri-X @250 in Rodinal 1:100, 20 min., 30 sec initial agitation and 5 seconds every three minutes thereafter. I.e., I subscribe to the minimalist school of agitation when it comes to Rodinal. I don't have any current work scanned at this time to show, but this yields a really nice looking neg with good grain and tonal characteristics. It is perhaps less "gutsy" than the negs Thomas gets, but neither is "right" except as they support the type of images and the emotion being conveyed.
One thing I do agree with is that the Tri-X/Rodinal combination (at least at higher dilutions) needs more exposure than "box speed". I believe that the "new" Tri-X is about 1/3 stop faster than the Tri-X of 15 or more years ago. I have seen Tri-X @ 800 work really well in Rodinal, but of course the regimen is different.
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
I see nothing wrong there
Picture looks good, and the bands at top and bottom seem ok.
IMHO there's a few things you have to look at:
* Rodinal is a "honest" grain developer, and TriX is not fine grained anyway. I liked the combo for a very nice tonality and sharpnedd, expose +1 (EI 200) for smaller grain.
* If you are scanning the negatives and not printing traditionally you'll see a lot more grain than there is. Those are electronic artifacts due to silver grains
* Agitate 1/minute, twirl and rotate at the same time (hard to explain)
* And use a few extra ml of water for the roll, no big deal with such diluted developer.
Picture looks good, and the bands at top and bottom seem ok.
IMHO there's a few things you have to look at:
* Rodinal is a "honest" grain developer, and TriX is not fine grained anyway. I liked the combo for a very nice tonality and sharpnedd, expose +1 (EI 200) for smaller grain.
* If you are scanning the negatives and not printing traditionally you'll see a lot more grain than there is. Those are electronic artifacts due to silver grains
* Agitate 1/minute, twirl and rotate at the same time (hard to explain)
* And use a few extra ml of water for the roll, no big deal with such diluted developer.
sbug said:
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Pablo hits it - it's actually not overly aggressive or too gentle agitation. it's inadequate breakup of the developer flow. I haven't noticed Rodinal in particular being susceptible to this, but I haven't tested for it, either.
I would agitate less often (once per minute) and for longer (10s instead of 5), with a rotating and inverting action, as Pablo (and Anchell and Troop) recommends.
Put right hand on top of the tank, left on the bottom.
-Invert the tank clockwise. Rotate your right thumb away from you as you invert. Return.
-Inter the tank clockwise. Rotate your right thumb towards your (this is actually quite uncomfortable, just fyi), return.
I do 5 of those in 10s.
Also, make sure your tank is not completely full with developer. You need room for the developer to move. Are you using SS tanks? Overly-full tanks are more common with them than plastic.
allan
I would agitate less often (once per minute) and for longer (10s instead of 5), with a rotating and inverting action, as Pablo (and Anchell and Troop) recommends.
Put right hand on top of the tank, left on the bottom.
-Invert the tank clockwise. Rotate your right thumb away from you as you invert. Return.
-Inter the tank clockwise. Rotate your right thumb towards your (this is actually quite uncomfortable, just fyi), return.
I do 5 of those in 10s.
Also, make sure your tank is not completely full with developer. You need room for the developer to move. Are you using SS tanks? Overly-full tanks are more common with them than plastic.
allan
Sisyphus
Sisyphus
Hey, I just wanted to say thanks to all those who listed there methodology with Rodinal. I am really curious to try or experiment with some of your solutions, just to see what kind of results that may occur. I am really curious to try rodinal at 1:100 and 1:50, since quite a few of you seem swear by it.
Also, I should mention that I am exposing my Tri-X at 320. I forgot to mention that previously, and I actually did a series of film tests, which indicated that my film speed with the way I process my film is 320. Plus-X was true to its nature at 125.
Thanks trius for looking, and your comments!
Sisyphus
Also, I should mention that I am exposing my Tri-X at 320. I forgot to mention that previously, and I actually did a series of film tests, which indicated that my film speed with the way I process my film is 320. Plus-X was true to its nature at 125.
Thanks trius for looking, and your comments!
Sisyphus