Roughcollie
Member
I am thinking about buying a Russian Rangefinder film camera,can anybody give me some guidance on which one is best to buy and any pit falls.
Thanks
Thanks
Russian Rangefinder
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dee
Well-known
Hi.
My first suggestion is to buy from 'OKvintagecamera.com' because Oleg is the best engineer around and you will be sure of a good one.
Most FSU have been bodged over the years , so buying from e bay etc can be a gamble.
A Fed 2 is one of the best as is a Zorki 4 , both of which had decades of development from the original Leica II copy and have a removable back and easy loading.
These are later cameras when quality had dropped of considerably but there are some OK ones..
A pre 1965 Zorki could be a good bet - but must come from a reliable supplier as most will need work.
I like the odd ZorkiS with revised top plate with flash sync but it still has the bottom loading of the Leica II.
In truth the very cheap ugly-bug Fed 5 is not as bad as suggested - but buy from Oleg .
You can always ask Oleg for a CLA camera , but I bought a pair of notoriously tricky Kiev 4/4m from him which are excellent .He also serviced a couple of Fed 1 'Leica' engraved copies for me which are super smooth.
Kiev are my fave FSU , but they are complicated and prone to wear .
There are some new Fed 5 around too.
You may find a UK sourced Zorki 4 /4k which were imported by TOE and carefully checked over.
Many people bought them cheaply as a second fun camera and they may be OK.
Even a camera from the 70s/80s will really need a cla [ clean lubricate adjusted ].
My mint boxed late
My first suggestion is to buy from 'OKvintagecamera.com' because Oleg is the best engineer around and you will be sure of a good one.
Most FSU have been bodged over the years , so buying from e bay etc can be a gamble.
A Fed 2 is one of the best as is a Zorki 4 , both of which had decades of development from the original Leica II copy and have a removable back and easy loading.
These are later cameras when quality had dropped of considerably but there are some OK ones..
A pre 1965 Zorki could be a good bet - but must come from a reliable supplier as most will need work.
I like the odd ZorkiS with revised top plate with flash sync but it still has the bottom loading of the Leica II.
In truth the very cheap ugly-bug Fed 5 is not as bad as suggested - but buy from Oleg .
You can always ask Oleg for a CLA camera , but I bought a pair of notoriously tricky Kiev 4/4m from him which are excellent .He also serviced a couple of Fed 1 'Leica' engraved copies for me which are super smooth.
Kiev are my fave FSU , but they are complicated and prone to wear .
There are some new Fed 5 around too.
You may find a UK sourced Zorki 4 /4k which were imported by TOE and carefully checked over.
Many people bought them cheaply as a second fun camera and they may be OK.
Even a camera from the 70s/80s will really need a cla [ clean lubricate adjusted ].
My mint boxed late
Joao
Negativistic forever
Hello
Not knowing your previous experiences with these cameras it is difficult to give you an advice. I would sugest:
1) Buy one from a reliable seller you can trust; a recent CLA from a reputed technician is mandatory.
2) If ergonomy is not your priority, a Kiev 4-AM can be a good option - it needs some time to get used to it. Cheap lenses, easily available.
3) FED-2 - very basic and very robust
4) Zorki 4 - if you are sure that all speeds are working correctly
5) Zorki-6 - if an hinged back is important to you.
Those would be my choices, but take them as a personal opinion, except for #1, which I believe to be consensual.
Regards
João
Edit - Just saw Dee's post now. Fully agree with what he wrote...
Last edited:
bobby_novatron
Photon Collector
Roughcollie, I also second the advice given, namely purchase from a reputable seller, if possible.
In my own personal experience, here's my suggestions:
1. The Zorki-4 has a bright almost 1:1 viewing window. Easy on the eyes and easy to focus.
2. The Fed 2 is robust and rugged, but the viewing window + rangefinder patch are considerably smaller.
3. The Kiev 4 series of cameras is also a good bet. Especially if you can find one with the "Helios-103" lens, it's a sleeper. The Kiev 4 cameras were built like tanks and seemingly indestructible. I've owned 3 of them, and they've all been good performers.
There is a vendor on the east coast of USA, the website is fedka.com -- he sells only 100% functional items, no duds -- I've dealt with him and had no issues. His prices are higher than eBay but at least his cameras are in good shape.
About "pitfalls" -- well, as everyone else has pointed out, you need to be cautious about where you buy your camera from. Some eBay sellers in Russia, Ukraine, etc. are 100% top-notch, others are not.
Also, it's important to note that the lenses on Russian rangefinder cameras are made to different tolerances than Leica thread-mount lenses (Leica, Canon, Voigtlander, etc.) -- so they may not focus properly on a Leica camera body, especially when wide open. This is known as the "register" against the film plane. The Soviet cameras have a slightly different register. I'm only mentioning this in case you were thinking of trying out a Russian lens on a Leica thread-mount body. It can be done, but you have to play it safe and shoot with the lens stopped down to F5.6 or smaller.
Good luck with your search!
In my own personal experience, here's my suggestions:
1. The Zorki-4 has a bright almost 1:1 viewing window. Easy on the eyes and easy to focus.
2. The Fed 2 is robust and rugged, but the viewing window + rangefinder patch are considerably smaller.
3. The Kiev 4 series of cameras is also a good bet. Especially if you can find one with the "Helios-103" lens, it's a sleeper. The Kiev 4 cameras were built like tanks and seemingly indestructible. I've owned 3 of them, and they've all been good performers.
There is a vendor on the east coast of USA, the website is fedka.com -- he sells only 100% functional items, no duds -- I've dealt with him and had no issues. His prices are higher than eBay but at least his cameras are in good shape.
About "pitfalls" -- well, as everyone else has pointed out, you need to be cautious about where you buy your camera from. Some eBay sellers in Russia, Ukraine, etc. are 100% top-notch, others are not.
Also, it's important to note that the lenses on Russian rangefinder cameras are made to different tolerances than Leica thread-mount lenses (Leica, Canon, Voigtlander, etc.) -- so they may not focus properly on a Leica camera body, especially when wide open. This is known as the "register" against the film plane. The Soviet cameras have a slightly different register. I'm only mentioning this in case you were thinking of trying out a Russian lens on a Leica thread-mount body. It can be done, but you have to play it safe and shoot with the lens stopped down to F5.6 or smaller.
Good luck with your search!
julio1fer
Well-known
A few decisions on your side would narrow the field. I am talking here of operations and general preferences, not prestige or collectible value (or history).
1. Kiev or screw-mount types ("Contax vs Leica"). If Kiev, no more work is needed, just look at the models and pick one. Usually better and cheaper glass, bodies are a bit less reliable than screw-mount types (FED, Zorkis)
2. If screw-mount you have a few more decisions to make:
- bottom load or hinged back
- do you need large RF distance (for longer lenses or very precise focusing)?
- do you need slow speeds (1 s to 1/15 s)?
- do you prefer a large or small camera body?
If you answer these your choices are simplified.
1. Kiev or screw-mount types ("Contax vs Leica"). If Kiev, no more work is needed, just look at the models and pick one. Usually better and cheaper glass, bodies are a bit less reliable than screw-mount types (FED, Zorkis)
2. If screw-mount you have a few more decisions to make:
- bottom load or hinged back
- do you need large RF distance (for longer lenses or very precise focusing)?
- do you need slow speeds (1 s to 1/15 s)?
- do you prefer a large or small camera body?
If you answer these your choices are simplified.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
I more or less agree with what's been said already. Do think about what you want to do with the camera, and which lenses (focal lengths) you want to use.
A few things I'd like to add:
We have a "sticky" (i.e. an old thread that remains permanently at the top of the subforum) with an excellent guide to the different FSU cameras.
My experience with the Zorki-4 finder was the exact opposite of bobby_novatron's above. I wear glasses and the finder was downright unusable. Plus the speed selector is a royal pain. I ended up giving the camera away to a fellow RFF member (I didn't pay much for it to begin with). The FED-2 finder is a little better but I still need an auxiliary finder.
I have bought lenses and small items from Fedka but I find his prices for bodies/complete cameras are too high. His Kievs are more expensive than a user Contax, while many of the Leica copies end up in the price region of a decent Leica IIIc, Canon P, or Bessa R. Frankly I don't see the point.
A few things I'd like to add:
We have a "sticky" (i.e. an old thread that remains permanently at the top of the subforum) with an excellent guide to the different FSU cameras.
My experience with the Zorki-4 finder was the exact opposite of bobby_novatron's above. I wear glasses and the finder was downright unusable. Plus the speed selector is a royal pain. I ended up giving the camera away to a fellow RFF member (I didn't pay much for it to begin with). The FED-2 finder is a little better but I still need an auxiliary finder.
I have bought lenses and small items from Fedka but I find his prices for bodies/complete cameras are too high. His Kievs are more expensive than a user Contax, while many of the Leica copies end up in the price region of a decent Leica IIIc, Canon P, or Bessa R. Frankly I don't see the point.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
FED-2 with Jupiter-8.
FED-2 must be CLA'ed, with light tight shutters.
Jupiter-8 must be aligned with particular camera and camera RF must be spot on.
No pit falls if you get it as described. Good luck to get, if you will decide.
FED-2 must be CLA'ed, with light tight shutters.
Jupiter-8 must be aligned with particular camera and camera RF must be spot on.
No pit falls if you get it as described. Good luck to get, if you will decide.
lynnb
Veteran
I have had problems with the two Russian cameras I've used:
- Fed-3, one of the baseplate latches broke
- Fed-2, shutter curtains did not create an exposure slit in about 8 of 36 exposures (resulting in blank frames), and about half a dozen of the remainder had uneven exposure across the frame, indicating the curtains were not travelling at a synchronised speed.
My experience confirms the advice about buying a CLA'd camera from a reputable source.
The Fed-3 had a hinged back but short RF base length. The Fed-2 felt nicer and had a longer RF base length, making for easier focusing. However loading was not so convenient.
After my experience, I'd rather get a Canon IVSB2 or Canon 7, simply because of the better build quality. The IVSB2 is a lovely camera, although you have to trim the film leader to load it, which is a pain. Sears/Tower are another option, although prices of all these can equal a Leica!
- Fed-3, one of the baseplate latches broke
- Fed-2, shutter curtains did not create an exposure slit in about 8 of 36 exposures (resulting in blank frames), and about half a dozen of the remainder had uneven exposure across the frame, indicating the curtains were not travelling at a synchronised speed.
My experience confirms the advice about buying a CLA'd camera from a reputable source.
The Fed-3 had a hinged back but short RF base length. The Fed-2 felt nicer and had a longer RF base length, making for easier focusing. However loading was not so convenient.
After my experience, I'd rather get a Canon IVSB2 or Canon 7, simply because of the better build quality. The IVSB2 is a lovely camera, although you have to trim the film leader to load it, which is a pain. Sears/Tower are another option, although prices of all these can equal a Leica!
ForestCap
Well-known
1. If you wear eye-glass/sun glass and don't want to repeatedly remove/put on the glasses when shooting, Zorki-6 and/or FED-2 are better choices, you can see the frames and 90% of the view when shooting with eye-glass on. Note that the FED-2 finder is quite dim, not very indoor-friendly. You can also buy felt eye-piece sticker for them so your glasses won't get scratched.
2. Zorki-4 and Zorki-6 have relatively bright viewfinder, i find them bright enough for indoor use without frowning too much. Z4 has about x1 magnification (Z6 is about x0.7), the view is big and punchy, however the eye-point of Z4's viewfinder is very, very short, you must stick your eyeball to the finder eyepiece to see the whole frame, like batterytypehah! said it's unusable if you wear eye-glass (I was a bit surprised when saw aki-asahi.com selling anti-scratch eyepiece sticker for Zorki-4). Also the view of Z4's finder is slightly wider than 50mm. If the viewfinder is off the target, i prefer it to be tighter than actual view, not wider.
3, If weight/bulkiness is something you care about, early FED-2 model without self timer is the lightest one among the three mentioned above, and also the smallest one. Z4 is as bulky as a Canon 7 (anyone have a picture of them side by side?).
4, If you like tinkering things at home, FED-2 is easier to service since it's the simplest and crudest one among the three. Zorki-4 and 6 are obviously more well-built, and maybe more well-designed.
What I really want is a FED-2 body with a Zorki-6 viewfinder.
I don't know anything about Kiev rangefinders, they seem to have their own distinct advantages as well as quirks.
2. Zorki-4 and Zorki-6 have relatively bright viewfinder, i find them bright enough for indoor use without frowning too much. Z4 has about x1 magnification (Z6 is about x0.7), the view is big and punchy, however the eye-point of Z4's viewfinder is very, very short, you must stick your eyeball to the finder eyepiece to see the whole frame, like batterytypehah! said it's unusable if you wear eye-glass (I was a bit surprised when saw aki-asahi.com selling anti-scratch eyepiece sticker for Zorki-4). Also the view of Z4's finder is slightly wider than 50mm. If the viewfinder is off the target, i prefer it to be tighter than actual view, not wider.
3, If weight/bulkiness is something you care about, early FED-2 model without self timer is the lightest one among the three mentioned above, and also the smallest one. Z4 is as bulky as a Canon 7 (anyone have a picture of them side by side?).
4, If you like tinkering things at home, FED-2 is easier to service since it's the simplest and crudest one among the three. Zorki-4 and 6 are obviously more well-built, and maybe more well-designed.
What I really want is a FED-2 body with a Zorki-6 viewfinder.
I don't know anything about Kiev rangefinders, they seem to have their own distinct advantages as well as quirks.
dotur
od karnevala
Fed-2 is the best FSU rangefinder camera.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Condition above all: it doesn't matter how wonderful or elegant or purist a camera is if it doesn't work.
After that, personal preference. For me a Zorkii 4K wipes the floor with the competition (most of which I have tried).
But at that, I'd still go for a Voigtländer instead.
Cheers,
R.
After that, personal preference. For me a Zorkii 4K wipes the floor with the competition (most of which I have tried).
But at that, I'd still go for a Voigtländer instead.
Cheers,
R.
nongfuspring
Well-known
On ebay the cost of a lens + body kit and the cost of a lens alone are often very similar. If you're interested then order a Fed 2 with and Industar 22/61 or a Zorki 4 with a Jupiter 8. If you're lucky the body will work fine, if not then you can either fix it yourself or buy a Canon P or IVSB to attach the lens to.
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
Zorki 4 or 4k. I prefer the older Zorki 4 with the strap eyelets because strap eyelets are useful, and also because they tend to be made better than the later eyelet-less ones. The 4K has the useful addition of a wind lever, but is otherwise similar to the later 4 models - build quality may or may not be present.
The Zorki 6 has lever wind, eyelets, a bright VF (though slight smaller than the 4's) but no slow speeds. The ones I've handled also seem to be slightly less well made than 4s of the same vintage. But if you want a smaller, more ergonomic camera this one will beat the 4.
The Fed 3 is really nice in my experience. The build quality is good, the VF is decent, and it is nicely sized. The later Feds are bigger, uglier, and not as well made (I've had a 4 and 5 and was not impressed).
I've bought three Kievs. All look nice. Only one actually works 100%. And it's not even that much fun to use really, so I've barely touched it. Wanted to try one because they look cool... but the LTM soviet cams are just better made and better handling.
The Zorki 6 has lever wind, eyelets, a bright VF (though slight smaller than the 4's) but no slow speeds. The ones I've handled also seem to be slightly less well made than 4s of the same vintage. But if you want a smaller, more ergonomic camera this one will beat the 4.
The Fed 3 is really nice in my experience. The build quality is good, the VF is decent, and it is nicely sized. The later Feds are bigger, uglier, and not as well made (I've had a 4 and 5 and was not impressed).
I've bought three Kievs. All look nice. Only one actually works 100%. And it's not even that much fun to use really, so I've barely touched it. Wanted to try one because they look cool... but the LTM soviet cams are just better made and better handling.
Wulfthari
Well-known
Pretty sure the Z6 is thinner than a Fed2 and the Z4 is bulky, but not as big as my Canon 7 which is almost as big as my Leica M5.
For the rest I agree, the simpler the better, probably the Z6 is the best but I don't have a Fed 2 at the moment, the ones I handled felt somewhat similar to my Z, the only think that the viewfinder/rangefinder were darker/more contrasty.
julio1fer
Well-known
The sticky mentioned is a very good guide. And every user has a justified preference. So here are mine. Excuse the I,I,I below.
I have used FED-2. 3 and 5; Zorki-4 and 6; Kiev-4M. I also use a Canon 7, Barnack Leicas and a Contax III. Lenses: all of the Jupiters except the -3, in both mounts, a collapsible Industar-50 in L39, and Industar-26 and -61; Helios-103 for Kiev.
For what I do with rangefinders (50mm and 35mm hand held) the Zorki-6 or FED-3 are best. The Kievs have excellent lenses. Helios-103 is, for me, the best Soviet lens hands down, along with the Jupiter-12. But all lenses are better than good. Maybe I was lucky.
I do not like the handling of the Zorki-4 or the FED-5 although both are very capable bodies. Fed-2 is acceptable but no practical advantages when compared to Z-6 or F-3, unless you shoot a lot with long lenses and need precision focus in every shot or those slow speeds are critical for you.
I use glasses and have to protect them from the metal of the viewfinders' back ring. The viewfinders have diopter adjustment so it is not that bad. Glasses up when looking in the viewfinder.
I bought almost all of my Russian cameras from Russian or Ukranian sellers, most with little feedback. Only a Zorki-4 came from somewhere else, an UK seller (those were worked out by TOE and are usually good).
As I have access to a good camera tech with reasonable pricing, I just send the cameras to CLA and the expected minor repairs for 50-year cameras that usually were not well kept. It works for me.
I have used FED-2. 3 and 5; Zorki-4 and 6; Kiev-4M. I also use a Canon 7, Barnack Leicas and a Contax III. Lenses: all of the Jupiters except the -3, in both mounts, a collapsible Industar-50 in L39, and Industar-26 and -61; Helios-103 for Kiev.
For what I do with rangefinders (50mm and 35mm hand held) the Zorki-6 or FED-3 are best. The Kievs have excellent lenses. Helios-103 is, for me, the best Soviet lens hands down, along with the Jupiter-12. But all lenses are better than good. Maybe I was lucky.
I do not like the handling of the Zorki-4 or the FED-5 although both are very capable bodies. Fed-2 is acceptable but no practical advantages when compared to Z-6 or F-3, unless you shoot a lot with long lenses and need precision focus in every shot or those slow speeds are critical for you.
I use glasses and have to protect them from the metal of the viewfinders' back ring. The viewfinders have diopter adjustment so it is not that bad. Glasses up when looking in the viewfinder.
I bought almost all of my Russian cameras from Russian or Ukranian sellers, most with little feedback. Only a Zorki-4 came from somewhere else, an UK seller (those were worked out by TOE and are usually good).
As I have access to a good camera tech with reasonable pricing, I just send the cameras to CLA and the expected minor repairs for 50-year cameras that usually were not well kept. It works for me.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
For a good user the FED 2 and Jupiter 8 are hard to beat. You can be lucky and find them in good working order and undamaged for a pittance but I'd agree with the others about buying from a dealer and getting a guarantee.
OTOH, the old FED 1 with the f/2 FED Summar clone is fun to use but is uncoated and dear if 100% OK. A FED or Zorki 1 with the J 8 or Industar is great to use and the Elmar clones are good.
But my first choice would always be the Fed 2 and Jupiter.
Regards, David
PS Kievs are great but like Contax a PITA if they fail.
For a good user the FED 2 and Jupiter 8 are hard to beat. You can be lucky and find them in good working order and undamaged for a pittance but I'd agree with the others about buying from a dealer and getting a guarantee.
OTOH, the old FED 1 with the f/2 FED Summar clone is fun to use but is uncoated and dear if 100% OK. A FED or Zorki 1 with the J 8 or Industar is great to use and the Elmar clones are good.
But my first choice would always be the Fed 2 and Jupiter.
Regards, David
PS Kievs are great but like Contax a PITA if they fail.
Fotohuis
Well-known
FED-3 , Zorki-6 or Kiev-4 (AM). For a standard 50mm lens: Jupiter-8. Advantages and disadvantages were already mentioned. I have two Z-6 and I like them most. All 100% refurbished because these cameras from the 60s always need some maintenance (CLA). If you have a good J-8, the lens is not much lesss in preformance then even a modern Leica Summicron f/2-50mm.
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