zauhar
Veteran
I have still not satisfied with my efforts in developing and scanning color film.
Recently I shot some Portra 160. Since I though some extra exposure 'couldn't hurt', I rated it at 100. I developed with the Tetanal kit, using usual temperature (39 C) and time (3:30). I still am not certain as to my agitation protocol, as I am spinning and the instructions only talk about inversions. I have reduced my agitation to about 5 sec of spinning every 30 sec development.
Here is an example - first the TIFF file from Vuescan, before inverting. This is somewhat overexposed, but excessively so?
When I invert and adjust levels, the histogram is clipped :
I left some border at the bottom - after using that to set black point and with some adjustments, I get an image that I am not happy with, especially the lifeless flesh tones .
So, my questions to you experienced hands:
1) Is this overexposure or overdevelopment? Could exposing at ISO 100 have that much effect? I was pretty careful about exposure (albeit at a shifted ISO).
2) Anything that might be an artefact of scanning or my PS approach? Does the negative look that bad to begin with?
Thanks,
Randy
Recently I shot some Portra 160. Since I though some extra exposure 'couldn't hurt', I rated it at 100. I developed with the Tetanal kit, using usual temperature (39 C) and time (3:30). I still am not certain as to my agitation protocol, as I am spinning and the instructions only talk about inversions. I have reduced my agitation to about 5 sec of spinning every 30 sec development.
Here is an example - first the TIFF file from Vuescan, before inverting. This is somewhat overexposed, but excessively so?
When I invert and adjust levels, the histogram is clipped :
I left some border at the bottom - after using that to set black point and with some adjustments, I get an image that I am not happy with, especially the lifeless flesh tones .
So, my questions to you experienced hands:
1) Is this overexposure or overdevelopment? Could exposing at ISO 100 have that much effect? I was pretty careful about exposure (albeit at a shifted ISO).
2) Anything that might be an artefact of scanning or my PS approach? Does the negative look that bad to begin with?
Thanks,
Randy
Jan Pedersen
Well-known
The negative does look a little dense but that is usually not a problem. Portra 160 should easily print well when exposed as 100 ISO.
I think the problem is over development, i develop all color negative film 3:15 at 37C and 3:15 is from i fill the tank till i pour the Bleach.
That said, i don't get the best results from the Tetenal chems, the Rollei Digibase sold by Freestyle is far better and makes much cleaner negatives.
Now, i don't know what scanner you are using but can you adjust the histogram before you scan? I use an Epson V750 and use Epson SW where there is a feature to adjust the histogram in the preview, i always make sure that there is nothing clipped in both ends.
I think the problem is over development, i develop all color negative film 3:15 at 37C and 3:15 is from i fill the tank till i pour the Bleach.
That said, i don't get the best results from the Tetenal chems, the Rollei Digibase sold by Freestyle is far better and makes much cleaner negatives.
Now, i don't know what scanner you are using but can you adjust the histogram before you scan? I use an Epson V750 and use Epson SW where there is a feature to adjust the histogram in the preview, i always make sure that there is nothing clipped in both ends.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
You need to adjust the black and white points before you scan, the scan should look flat and dull and when it appears in PS the histogram shouldn't be clipped.
This is a simple 'just works' method:
http://photo-utopia.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/scanning-with-epson-v500.html
This is a simple 'just works' method:
http://photo-utopia.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/scanning-with-epson-v500.html
zauhar
Veteran
Guys, thanks for those responses.
Jan, I agree that my development time might be reduced - I thought I had too much agitation, but reducing that substantially still yields dark negatives (not just this example). I will cut it back as you suggest, maybe even cut down to 3 minutes as an experiment. I did try the digibase kit once, and had a bad experience (although I am pretty sure I messed up). I will consider trying it again.
Smith, since I am using Vuescan, I checked and now see that I can modify the histogram before scanning - only via the 'B&W image' -
The slider positions show are the best I could manage - the right hand (white point) slider is at the maximal position vuescan will permit, I have no idea why the limit (I suspect it's a bug).
In any event, rescanning produced essentially identical results with the raw file, again it is clipped. If any Vuescan users are listening in I would appreciate comments. I suspect that the sliders change the processed output of Vuescan, as no effect on the raw file.
Thanks!
Randy
Jan, I agree that my development time might be reduced - I thought I had too much agitation, but reducing that substantially still yields dark negatives (not just this example). I will cut it back as you suggest, maybe even cut down to 3 minutes as an experiment. I did try the digibase kit once, and had a bad experience (although I am pretty sure I messed up). I will consider trying it again.
Smith, since I am using Vuescan, I checked and now see that I can modify the histogram before scanning - only via the 'B&W image' -
The slider positions show are the best I could manage - the right hand (white point) slider is at the maximal position vuescan will permit, I have no idea why the limit (I suspect it's a bug).
In any event, rescanning produced essentially identical results with the raw file, again it is clipped. If any Vuescan users are listening in I would appreciate comments. I suspect that the sliders change the processed output of Vuescan, as no effect on the raw file.
Thanks!
Randy
fonzy
Newbie
Check out the plugin ColorPerfect, it works wonders!
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
I was also wondering what your vuescan procedure was.
My approach:
Input | Media to Color negative (I let vuescan do the inversion).
I do a preview and select an area outside of the frame that is just film base. I use this to set and Lock exposure, and then I do another preview at the new exposure setting, and Lock film base color.
I set Color | Color balance to None. I don't let vuescan do any color or black/white point adjustment other than compensating for the film base.
I output a 48 Bit RGB Raw TIFF or DNG, which is ready for white balancing etc. in Lightroom or Photoshop.
I suspect that if you are getting highlight clipping in the scan it is to do with not increasing the scan exposure to compensate for the denser film base.
On the processing side, I don't see having dense negatives as a problem. I use a jobo tank which use continual agitation (with Tetenal kit). The develop time in the instructions is the same for inversion and for rotary tube, so I think it highly unlikely that you are over-agitating.
My approach:
Input | Media to Color negative (I let vuescan do the inversion).
I do a preview and select an area outside of the frame that is just film base. I use this to set and Lock exposure, and then I do another preview at the new exposure setting, and Lock film base color.
I set Color | Color balance to None. I don't let vuescan do any color or black/white point adjustment other than compensating for the film base.
I output a 48 Bit RGB Raw TIFF or DNG, which is ready for white balancing etc. in Lightroom or Photoshop.
I suspect that if you are getting highlight clipping in the scan it is to do with not increasing the scan exposure to compensate for the denser film base.
On the processing side, I don't see having dense negatives as a problem. I use a jobo tank which use continual agitation (with Tetenal kit). The develop time in the instructions is the same for inversion and for rotary tube, so I think it highly unlikely that you are over-agitating.
edge100
Well-known
ColorPerfect is the answer.
My workflow: http://youtu.be/_pfQ61WTbug (I also use the Tetenal kit, with 4 inversions every 30 seconds).
My workflow: http://youtu.be/_pfQ61WTbug (I also use the Tetenal kit, with 4 inversions every 30 seconds).
zauhar
Veteran
CNNY, fonzy abd edge100, thanks for the additional response. I have tried colorperfect in the past, was disappointed. Likewise, CNNY, I have tried the 'lock exposure' trick in Vuescan, but I think not exactly as you suggest.
I will update the thread once I take your suggestions into account. I will take another look at colorperfect.
Thanks!
Randy
I will update the thread once I take your suggestions into account. I will take another look at colorperfect.
Thanks!
Randy
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
I won't pretend that my scanning method produces perfect color, but my results are at least fairly consistent. I do find color neg scans almost always need a bit of work to get them to look right. I suppose that is the flip-side to the convenience and exposure latitude as compared to slide film.
In the example image, the color balance is quite cool. Adjusting that could bring some more life to the skin tone. I don't think the image is a lost cause. It is also a fact that over-exposing portra results in desaturation. There were some threads a while back discussing how to achieve that as a 'look' in portraits.
In the example image, the color balance is quite cool. Adjusting that could bring some more life to the skin tone. I don't think the image is a lost cause. It is also a fact that over-exposing portra results in desaturation. There were some threads a while back discussing how to achieve that as a 'look' in portraits.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
Smith, since I am using Vuescan, I checked and now see that I can modify the histogram before scanning - only via the 'B&W image' -
The slider positions show are the best I could manage - the right hand (white point) slider is at the maximal position vuescan will permit, I have no idea why the limit (I suspect it's a bug).
Thanks!
Randy
Try the colour tab, I scan in colour curve (from memory as I don't have VS on this computer)
I think you can set the black and white points in the boxes rather than the sliders I think they're called curve high and curve low.
I'll try to look later.
zauhar
Veteran
I was only able to set this on the B & W image, there did not seem to be sliders available anywhere else (and I think the documentation said something similar).
Please let me know if I missed something.
Thanks!
Randy
Q-dog
Established
Hi,
I don't know what settings you use but some years ago when I was playing around with different settings I discovered that in some cases the histogram was clipped when I used save raw file with film settings. I think I just wanted to see if there was any difference between this file and the tiff output file other than the raw file being inverted. Anyhow, I mailed Ed Hamrick but he simply replied that using save raw with film settings was a bad idea.
Have you tried letting Vuescan doing all the work for you instead?
Ola
I don't know what settings you use but some years ago when I was playing around with different settings I discovered that in some cases the histogram was clipped when I used save raw file with film settings. I think I just wanted to see if there was any difference between this file and the tiff output file other than the raw file being inverted. Anyhow, I mailed Ed Hamrick but he simply replied that using save raw with film settings was a bad idea.
Have you tried letting Vuescan doing all the work for you instead?
Ola
Pete B
Well-known
In INPUT tick multi exposure only.
then preview the image with plenty of inter-frame border.
Now tick Lock exposure
preview again
Now tick Lock Film Base
Preview again
Tick Lock image colour.
Now SCAN the image. You should be able to adjust the pointers for no clipping then Save As (so long as in the OUTPUT tab you've allowed this option).
See figs in posts 15/16
Pete
then preview the image with plenty of inter-frame border.
Now tick Lock exposure
preview again
Now tick Lock Film Base
Preview again
Tick Lock image colour.
Now SCAN the image. You should be able to adjust the pointers for no clipping then Save As (so long as in the OUTPUT tab you've allowed this option).
See figs in posts 15/16
Pete
Gordon Coale
Well-known
I think you have two processes that you are trying to evaluate at the same time when neither are under control. I would suggest you start with film that has been developed by a good lab. Then you have a good baseline to work from. Then you can work on your scanning process. When that is where you want it you can scan film you have developed. If the scan is off you will know it is the development and not the scanning. As it is you don't know if it is your film development or scanning or both that is the problem.
Pete B
Well-known
Pete B
Well-known
The output will need to be manipulated in Photoshop
Pete
Pete B
Well-known
I think you've do very well with this image considering you've developed the negs and clipped the colours in scanning!!!
Have a go with my method of scanning with no clipping and show us your results.
Pete
Have a go with my method of scanning with no clipping and show us your results.
Pete
Photo_Smith
Well-known
Randy
I'm no Vuescan expert, but I know that matching the negative/slide to the scanners range will give the best chance of getting all the detail.
Here is my non expert modus.
I use the 'graph image' rather than B&W like this:
In this view you use the sliders in the box to ensure that none of the RGB curves fall off either end (A&B) or clip at the top (C)
I think the closer you can get to the end of the scale without clipping the better.
The image (you can see the little preview) will look dull and lifeless but should have all the info you need in the file that you import into Photoshop where you can apply levels, curves or whatever you need to make the image look OK.
Here is a quick trip to curves and sharpen:
Now I'm not saying this is the definitive workflow, just what works for me when I use Vuescan.
Hope it helps.
I'm no Vuescan expert, but I know that matching the negative/slide to the scanners range will give the best chance of getting all the detail.
Here is my non expert modus.
I use the 'graph image' rather than B&W like this:
In this view you use the sliders in the box to ensure that none of the RGB curves fall off either end (A&B) or clip at the top (C)
I think the closer you can get to the end of the scale without clipping the better.
The image (you can see the little preview) will look dull and lifeless but should have all the info you need in the file that you import into Photoshop where you can apply levels, curves or whatever you need to make the image look OK.
Here is a quick trip to curves and sharpen:
Now I'm not saying this is the definitive workflow, just what works for me when I use Vuescan.
Hope it helps.
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
As is usual with scanning threads, there is lots of conflicting advice here.
I prefer to not set black and white points in vuescan, because in doing so it will remap the histogram for each color. If you do this before you fine tune the color balance it can result in color shifts in the highlights and shadows.
If you scan as 48 bit RGB, provided you have set the exposure correctly, you will have all the contrast data on the negative in your scan. You are not loosing any information by not setting clipping points, so you may as well leave the clipping and curves for lightroom/photoshop. It also speeds up and simplifies batch scanning.
I have scans that were done where black and white points were set sloppily, and there is no amount of twiddling of sliders I can do to make them look normal. I always try to rule out potential operator error if I can.
I prefer to not set black and white points in vuescan, because in doing so it will remap the histogram for each color. If you do this before you fine tune the color balance it can result in color shifts in the highlights and shadows.
If you scan as 48 bit RGB, provided you have set the exposure correctly, you will have all the contrast data on the negative in your scan. You are not loosing any information by not setting clipping points, so you may as well leave the clipping and curves for lightroom/photoshop. It also speeds up and simplifies batch scanning.
I have scans that were done where black and white points were set sloppily, and there is no amount of twiddling of sliders I can do to make them look normal. I always try to rule out potential operator error if I can.
edge100
Well-known
Linear scans in Vuescan with locked exposure for the whole roll (or at least common scenes on the roll), ColorPerfect (use black slider to get rid of clipped highlights), curves to restore proper exposure and contrast, custom WB to taste (though ColorPerfect usually gets very close).
This works perfectly for 99% of my colour negs, irrespective of film type.
This works perfectly for 99% of my colour negs, irrespective of film type.