Scanning using "B&W Positive"

[formal]

I use a KM 5400 II with KM's software.

I find that if I scan black and white negatives as "B&W Positive" I'm able to retain both the shadows and highlights. In particular, by adjusting the scanner's exposure, the histogram is not clipped at either end. Using "B&W Negative" I get a much more contrasty image, but I'm unable to retain both the shadows and highlights.

Comments?

Regards,
David

 

[Stephanie Brim]

I'll try it with my next roll. As of now, I see no problem with just using B&W negative. I also use Vuescan, though, but only for color lately. It has been wonky with my black and white.

 

[aterlecki]

If clipping occurs then that is probably down to your software so see if there is an option to not clip. Some programs such as Vuescan allow you to select what percentage of the image you wish to clip at either end. Personally I keep all information then manually clip (i.e. set my highlight and shadow endpoints) myself once I see what is in the image. However almost all images benefit from clipping in the shadows to bring back some decent contrast into the image so if it's only very minor clipping then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[GeneW]

I use the a Minolta 5400 and have never found the Minolta software very good for B&W. Vuescan works better for me.

Gene

 

[dmr]

I'll try B&W positive on some of a batch I'm going to do this week and see if it makes any difference. I've used color positive but didn't really see that much difference as long as I paid attention to levels and such.

 

[amateriat]

With either chromogenic or conventional b/w film (easier with the former), the KM plug-in is okay, but VueScan is a considerable improvement. Haven't played with the b/w positive setting as I've seen little need so far, but if it works for you, who am I to argue?


- Barrett

 

[Stephanie Brim]

My beef with Vuescan has to do with the film type settings. I'm not quite understanding why the default is TMAX 100...but I change it every time I use it. Scans seem to be flatter and less contrasty with Vuescan for me. The color scans that Vuescan produces, though, are incredible.

 

[Patman]

I use the MS software with no problems, has everyone updated their software? New software was posted last month and it works fine!

 

[x-ray]

I scan all of my negs as a posative on my Fuji Finescan 5000. The finescan has no adjustments in the scan application but does have profiles and the ability to create profiles. All that is possible in this application is select scan depth, size. pos or neg, refletive or transmission and the profile. I bypass the editing software, additional application, and go direct to pjhotoshop where I convert to positive grayscale and assign my profile. Next I apply curves and levels for a great looking image. When scanning as if the film was positive the scan is almost linear. If I scan as a negative the scans are dark and contrasty even on the Finescan.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5045

 

[wdenies]

I use the Epson scan software. After some experiments I scan my B&W negatives as 48 bit colour.Why?
I noticed that grayscale scanning gives less detail and introduces some artifacts.
Anyway some PS plug-ins require RGB mode.
Final correction and conversin is done with PS CS.
BTW scanning a B&W negative as a colour negative may produce a nice sepia looking toning.

Wim

 

[kaiyen]

Stephanie,

Don't work too much with the film type settings. At one point, Ed tried to put a comprehensive list in there but eventually Fuji and Kodak stopped publishing curves.

I stick with the TMY profile all the time. I try for the .55, but will adjust as needed depending on whether my negative is contrasty or not. My process is generally dialed in enough to stick with .55, though, which gives me a nice smooth curve through the entire tonal range. Then a quick bit of curves in PS to give it a bit more of a toe and shoulder and I'm done.

allan

 

[sf]

I have tried a large selection of combinations :

For scanning black and white :

1. Scan as black and white negative : contrasty, bright, medium tones lack impact, but it has nice punch on screen.

2. Scan as slide film : get a little more detail in what were previously black shadows and white highlights, but in order to get the same punch as #1, I need to increase contrast, which brings me to a near tie with #1.

3. Scan as positive black and white : I tried this, and found that the image was generally flat and light - underexposed by the scanner.

My choice is to scan as black and white for landscapes and street stuff, and scan as slide film for portraits, because the tones are smoother, the highlights and shadows are nicer, and the lower contrast is pleasing when dealt with properly.


I would LOVE some advice on getting the Minolta Dimage Scan Multi Pro to produce B&W neg scans with stronger mid tones - how do I adjust exposure? Is it really just brightness or lightness or whatever?

 

[formal]

Thanks for the responses. I'm still confused 🙁

However, here is an example of what I mean. First a scan as B&W Negative. As you can see, its clipped at both ends - so I need to lose either some highlights or some shadows.

B&W Negative

Here it is as a "B&W Positive". The histogram is only very slightly clipped.

B&W Positive

The second images needs some curves in Photoshop to get more contrast, but I think it works reasonably well. However, what do I know?

David

 

[T_om]

I would LOVE some advice on getting the Minolta Dimage Scan Multi Pro to produce B&W neg scans with stronger mid tones - how do I adjust exposure? Is it really just brightness or lightness or whatever?

The problem is that you are trying to make the scanner into something it is not. A scanner is a data capture device, not an image manipulation device.

Set the scanner to recover the maximum amount of information you can from the negative THEN use the correct tools to adjust that image.

Scanners cannot do what PhotoShop does.

Tom

 

[aad]

Formal, you may be getting caught up in the histograms-if the B&W positve looks good when you flip it in PS, do that. The histogram is just a tool to help you make the image look better. The B&W negative looks a little overexposed, typical when I scan B&W on my Minolta. Reducing the light, multi pass or just toning thins down in PS should help. Ultimately, T_om has the right idea. Manipulating images in the scanner stage is a mistake, IMHO.

 

[formal]

Formal, you may be getting caught up in the histograms ...

Aad, I also agree with Tom. All I'm doing is adjusting the exposure when scanning.

The histogram is just confiming what I have experienced - with "B&W Negative" I lose detail in either the shadows or highlights, but I can retain it using "B&W Positive".

Regards,
David

 

[Damian]

formal - The Epson software for my scanner decides to clip off a healthy chunk of histogram on both shadows and highlights - even for color film. Fortunately, I can change it every time I use to software to pull in everything (or just use Vuescan)

Stephanie - In Vuescan, the c:\vuescan\vuescan.ini file, you can change the default film type. The lines are here:

NegativeVendor=3
NegativeBrand=4
NegativeType=1
BWVendor=3
BWBrand=5
BWType=1

Negative brand and type are for color, BW is obvious. Go into vuescan, set the values to what you use most often, and then file - save options. Save it to your desktop or wherever, and then open that file. You'll see what numbers are used for what vendor/film type. THEN, open the vuescan.ini file and change the numbers to match. It will use that film type by default each time you choose color neg or B&W neg respectively. HTH.

 

[sf]

The problem is that you are trying to make the scanner into something it is not. A scanner is a data capture device, not an image manipulation device.

Set the scanner to recover the maximum amount of information you can from the negative THEN use the correct tools to adjust that image.

Scanners cannot do what PhotoShop does.

Tom

I agree on that, but I find that if I use the B&W negative method of capture, it looks contrasty and intense, and with B&W positive method I get more range, but the contrast is not usable. When I work on contrast with the positive scan to get it where i want it to be, I find that the two files look pretty near the same.

One method that I HAVE found to work very well is to scan in positive and set the black and white points manually, which puts my contrast about where it needs to be.

 

[kaiyen]

I'll have to agree with Tom on this one - why are you purposely clipping off blacks and whites in order to produce desired contrast when scanning? You should do that in PS only afterwards.

allan

 

[x-ray]

Start with the max amount of data in the scan then make all adjustments in PS.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5045