Sean Reid's M8 Review

rjcruz said:
Well,

What a response. My thread was never heated or insulting. Just an observation. then i get this

"Get over it. One of these days again I'll be able to post here without being trolled. Why don't you give it a rest and contribute something useful and on-topic to the thread. We're talking about an M8 review here."

Well, why don't you contribute your review without teasing and getting people to sign up to read it. That would be "Something useful" Geeeeeee talk about being arrogant.

RJ, you've made four posts here, all of them trolling so far. I've been contributing to this site for more than two years. You're barking up the wrong tree.

The sheer amount of trolling I've been dealing with lately is certainly testing my normally good nature. I know it even tests Joe's good nature from time to time. There's only so much nonsense a person can tolerate.

Sean
 
back alley said:
end it here before i do.

sean offers a service for a fee, the key word being offers.
no one is under any obligation to pay the fee but then there is no service.

very simple really.

i choose to pay the fee because i like to read reviews and i happen to think that sean's reviews are worth paying for.
but then i buy about 20 bucks worth of photo mags each month too.

joe

Hey Joe,

It's amazing. It seems that lately it's impossible for me to try to post at RFF without the trolls all coming out.

Cheers,

Sean
 
I will drop the subject with this last post and move on to more on topic discussions. But I am not the only one with this view.

rj, sorry but i'm not comfortable importing whole sections from another web site so i edited it out.
please feel free to roam our friendly site but please keep the 'friendly' part in mind as you do so.
joe
 
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sreidvt said:
Hey Joe,

It's amazing. It seems that lately it's impossible for me to try to post at RFF without the trolls all coming out.

Cheers,

Sean


it must be the price of popularity.

what i find amazing are the folks that think they should not have to pay anything because it's on the net.
granted, there is a lot of free stuff on the net but lots to buy also.

it's not like you haven't paid your dues or that the reviews are fluff...i can read pop photo if i want fluff.

joe
 
If anyone wants to get back to talking about the M8, I'm in.

Cheers,

Sean
 
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I was staying out of this because I am no longer taking sides on flame wars. I did get rid of the user because he started it and seem to be continuing it. However I think the post should have stayed in original form because we seldome edit here. but it was MY fault for not communicating to the mods soon enough.
 
sreidvt said:
Look Jim, I think you realize that I have been an advocate for the excellences of the R-D1 for a long time. I'm pretty familiar with it by now. I don't think I need to summarize my R-D1 history here. It's a wonderful camera and I still love it dearly. But I can't let that bias my results. You can trust my eyes and knowledge or not but what I've written in those reviews is what I know to be true about these cameras. All of it is based on first-hand experience, reviewing prints, etc. and I would argue that it is all quite accurate. I think that I described the R-D1 fairly accurately in 2004 and I think I've described the M8 accurately in 2006. That doesn't mean that everyone will be happy with my results, but I can't worry about that aspect.

Sean, that makes it sound as if this were an M8-vs.-R-D 1 debate, which we both know is not the case.

As you pointed out in your review, certain comparisons are inevitable because the M8 and R-D 1 are the only digital rangefinder cameras out there, and those comparisons are facilitated by the fact that they have the same lens mount.

In what I wrote, I wasn't trying to take one side or another in that comparison, but rather to use the similarities between the M8 and R-D 1 to examine some facets of the approach you took to comparing them.

There isn't much point in trying to analyze subtle distinctions between chalk and cheese -- the differences are so vast that any minor points of commonality are likely to be trivial. On the other hand, it could make sense for a "cheese critic" (writing, no doubt, for Chasseur des Fromages) to analyze differences between, say, parmesan and asiago.

Likewise, while it would be pointless to critique the performance of someone who did attempt to compare chalk and cheese (other than to point out that he was wasting his time) it WOULD be practical and possibly somewhat useful to comment on the methodology of our putative cheese critic in his parmesan-vs-asiago comparison.

And (here's the key point) it would be possible to make these comments without necessarily disputing the cheese boffin's actual conclusions about the relative merits of parmesan and asiago! The point is simply to identify where the original critic's observations might be open to alternate interpretations, or to note ways in which people with different tastes or priorities might draw different conclusions from the same observations.


I'm going to stop here... for some reason, I feel really hungry...
 
jlw said:
(...) on the methodology of our putative cheese critic
(...)
without necessarily disputing the cheese boffin's actual conclusions about the relative merits of parmesan and asiago!
I think you lost the Cheez Whiz camp there. 🙄

You wouldn't want to obfuscate the matter by exacerbating the gap between its point and its comprehensability by not positing alternative analogies 😉
 
sreidvt said:
Jim, one has to resample in order to print files from both cameras at the same size. That's just a reality. 100% crops are fun but the print is the real test and for a print at 240 ppi, 300 ppi, etc. one must size accordingly. For any given print size, either the Leica files must be downsampled or the Epson files must be upsampled. That's just a reality of printing

Sean

Sean, interested to know whether what I see on screen in reading your review plays out the same way when you are looking at the print.

And, at the price of repeating what others have said, thank you for your excellent reviews and much appreciate the time you take to discuss your insights.
 
stevenrk said:
Sean, interested to know whether what I see on screen in reading your review plays out the same way when you are looking at the print.

And, at the price of repeating what others have said, thank you for your excellent reviews and much appreciate the time you take to discuss your insights.

Hi Steven,

Thanks very much. Which aspects of the files are you thinking of?

Cheers,

Sean
 
Simon Larby said:
Another good review Sean and well reasoned. From what i've read i think the M8 will certainly work for me even at 3200. What a pity it's not properly weather sealed and produced with the slippy MP covering.....
More often than not i'm shooting in the rain or at the very least hot humid situations - a strong reason to keep the film M's alongside.

BTW, I'd suggest that you e-mail Leica and stress your interest in seeing a weather-sealed digital M body. They need to realize how important that is for a lot of professional work.

Cheers,

Sean
 
sreidvt said:
No bias at all. If anything, I had to be careful not to get too protective of the R-D1. Enthusiasm and bias are not the same thing. Note the enthusiasm in my R-D1 review as well. There's no need to be dispassionate, just fair.

Sean

No harsh criticism meant. Enthusiasm is fine, as is passion.

Regarding the noise comparisons between the M8 and the RD1, I think uprezzing the RD-1 files and then sharpening (to counter the AA filter effects) would have been a more interesting comparison, because I think that is what most people will do for prints. My guess is that in doing this it would have benefited the M8 more as sharpening tends to increase noise. I'll be happy to do this for you and save you some time if you lend me your M8 😀

Keep up the good work and ignore the trolls. It is appreciated and IMHO very good value for money.
 
AA Filters Really Aren't Good.

AA Filters Really Aren't Good.

jlw said:
This whole mystique of the absence of an anti-aliasing filter is something that leaves me a bit dubious

There is no reason to be dubious.

Information Theory (see, “Probability Theory: The Logic of Science” by E. T. Jaynes and G. Larry Bretthorst) tells us that whenever we modify, alter or filter data, the altered data can not yield estimates for the parameters of interest that best represent the true, but unknown parameter values. This means competent post-processing data manipulation is always better than competent pre-acquisition data manipulation. By the way, the parameters of interest are the frequencies and amplitudes (photon count) of the light falling on a specific point on the digital sensor.


Simply put, Information Theory says whenever possible avoid distorting the data before you collect it. This is not a subjective issue. Photographers know this intuitively, and we purchase the best lenses we can afford to minimize distortion before the image is recorded. Likewise our empirical experience tells us, raw image processing is superior to JPEG image processing.

Sometimes pre-acquisition data modification is unavoidable, but that doesn't make it any less destructive. The best physical anti-aliasing filter known to mankind still degrades the data.

..Buckets of stuff deleted

jlw said:
In other words, Sean seems to feel that "real" sharpness (Leica) is much better than software-generated "fake" sharpness (Epson)... but that software-induced "fake" low noise (Leica) is just as good as "real" low noise (Epson)! Huh?

There is no contradiction.

Information Theory says real sharpness is always better than software generated sharpness.

The symmetry jlw supposes between physical solutions and software solutions does not exist.

Software can not create noise. The noise is.

Software can (and does) create artifacts in the form of a residual signal.

In signal analysis, noise is the random error in a parameter estimate. Empirical noise is almost random. When we say noise, we mean those errors in the parameter estimate that are random. ISO noise is similar to the noise we hear from audio amplifiers. When the gain increases, the thermal noise increases.

Aliased signals are not noise. Alias signals can be huge when the noise level is low. Aliased signals are artifacts. Alias artifacts are not random. Non-random phenomena can be modeled. Aliasing of spatial frequencies is well understood. Post-acquisition we may be able to model aliasing artifacts down to the level of the noise, and then we can subtract them from the image. But no model is perfect and the post-acquisition calculations used to model the artifacts probably rely on approximations. So, when a post-processing algorithm models the aliasing artifacts and subtracts them from the data, the result is the signal we want, plus a residual, plus the noise. The "software-induced fake noise" is actually a software-generated residual. The noise is always just the noise. The post-processing residual is fake in the sense that it has nothing to do with the parameters of interest. The pre-processing residual is a real in the sense that it is a measure of the anti-aliasing filter efficiency. Yet, there is no reason why the amplitude of the post-processing alias-model residual can't be similar to the amplitude of the residual from imperfect pre-acqusition filtering. And, their similar amplitudes does not contradict Information Theory.



Earlier I stated the parameters of interest are the frequencies and amplitudes of the photons captured by the sensor. It turns out light also has a phase.

Will a high quality lens produce less phase distortion at the sensor than a low quality lens?

Does a physical anti-aliasing filter distort the phase?

Do Bayer-type digital sensors capture any information about the phase?

Do Foveon digital sensors capture any information about the phase?

Does a film emulsion capture any information about the phase?

In fact, is there any useful information in the phase?
 
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Gid said:
No harsh criticism meant. Enthusiasm is fine, as is passion.

Regarding the noise comparisons between the M8 and the RD1, I think uprezzing the RD-1 files and then sharpening (to counter the AA filter effects) would have been a more interesting comparison, because I think that is what most people will do for prints. My guess is that in doing this it would have benefited the M8 more as sharpening tends to increase noise. I'll be happy to do this for you and save you some time if you lend me your M8 😀

Keep up the good work and ignore the trolls. It is appreciated and IMHO very good value for money.

It depends on how big the print/press output is, of course. For magazine publication, for example, pictures are much more often used at page size or smaller rather than at double-truck. That means the Epson files would run at just over full res at full page size but the M8 file would be downsampled for that same use. And, actually, even full page size is larger than many pictures run. So, thinking about real world uses for these cameras, such as magazine photojournalism, is what lead me to compare them as I did. I wasn't trying to favor one camera or the other in terms of which way I went (downsampling Leica or upsampling Epson) but rather was trying to reflect the sizes that I think prints are most often made at.

Thanks for the comments.

Sean
 
willie_901 said:
There is no reason to be dubious.

Information Theory (see, “Probability Theory: The Logic of Science” by E. T. Jaynes and G. Larry Bretthorst) tells us...

Fascinating post....one of the most interesting I've read on the web in a long time.

I would just add that Jim's point about "software induced fake noise" isn't an accurate description of that happens. Downsampling, of course, samples out noise to some extent, it doesn't add fake noise. Large files (in terms of pixel measurements) need to be downsampled to match the dimensions of smaller files. In that process, they lose some noise. It's a very different kind of loss than what one loses with an AA filter.

When I looked at my first M8 files this summer, there was something in them that really struck me. I've recently begun to understand that what intrigued me was the return of something that I hadn't, until then, even noticed had been lost. And what has been lost to the AA filter is not just resolution but also very small subtleties and variations in color. Having now realized that and also having realized how attracted I am to the kind of rendering that is possible with no AA filter, I'm finding the difference to be compelling.

Looking at this in terms of Information Theory is really an interesting idea. It's great to see this thread develop in this direction.

Willie_901, I will be following your discussions of this with interest. It's engaging.

Cheers,

Sean
 
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I have just finished reading Sean’s review (parts 1 to 3) of the M8 which I found to be very useful. One thing I am interested in is the results from the M8 in a back lighting situation, say a backlit figure using a large aperture, f2 would be good. I would like to see how the sensor without an AA filter deals with this.
 
willie_901 said:
There is no reason to be dubious.

Information Theory (see, “Probability Theory: The Logic of Science” by E. T. Jaynes and G. Larry Bretthorst) tells us that whenever we modify, alter or filter data, the altered data can not yield estimates for the parameters of interest that best represent the true, but unknown parameter values.

You can't scare me with citations (or excess capital letters, either.) I've read up on information theory (both the communications-based Claude Shannon variety and the physics-based Leo Szilard flavor) and I already knew that filtered data are only approximations of the real data.

My point was that in principle, it shouldn't make any overall difference whether you're doing the filtering via a hardware filter or a software filter. Sure, there might be specific, subject-by-subject, case-by-case differences -- but since they are specific, we have to expect that the procedure that works "best" for one person is going to be sub-optimal for another.

To make what I wrote a bit more clear and specific: one part of Sean's review (again, apologies to those who have chosen not to subscribe to his site and haven't read it) talks about the benefit in perceived sharpness achieved by omission of a hardware anti-aliasing filter from the Leica M8's light path.

Later, in talking about the M8's EI 1600 noise level, he notes that its perceived obtrusiveness can be reduced by downsampling its files to a smaller size.

My point: Both these processes involve filtering the data.

Practical application:

-- Sean does most of his shooting at lower EI ratings, where the M8 exhibits low levels of perceived noise. The absence of an AA filter will be an advantage for him.

-- I do most of my shooting at EI 1600 (check my gallery to see why.) Based on Sean's information, I infer that if I used an M8, I would need to downsample my shots to get noise results similar to those of other cameras I use. This downsampling would filter the data, and this filtering would cancel out some of the perceived-sharpness advantage that the M8 provides at lower EIs. In other words, the absence of an AA filter likely will be less of an advantage for me.

Again, I didn't write this to criticize Sean or to say his conclusions were wrong. What I'm doing is applying his observations to my own situation. This is no different from what you probably do when you check the movie ratings in your newspaper: You say, "The critic gives this one four stars, but he loves slasher movies and I hate them, so I won't bother to go -- even though he's undoubtedly correct in saying it's a stellar example of the slasher-movie genre."

What' I'm saying is: Based on Sean's analysis, the M8 has a lot of advantages -- but I wouldn't be able to expect vastly superior sharpness to be one of them for the kinds of pictures I take. Your mileage, naturally, may vary.
 
willie_901 said:
Information Theory (see, “Probability Theory: The Logic of Science” by E. T. Jaynes and G. Larry Bretthorst) tells us that whenever we modify, alter or filter data, the altered data can not yield estimates for the parameters of interest that best represent the true, but unknown parameter values.
However, there are two comments to make here:

- The point of an AA filter is to cut off frequencies at a certain threshold. So your premise is somewhat compromised, because the whole purpose of the AA filter is to make those true, but unknown parameter values about the spatial frequency distribution irrelevant (while producing an acceptable result) that signal processing has to reconstruct. The key point here is that the AA filter produces problems somewhere else. But this is a question of parameterisation.

- Since we live in a real world: while I agree that usually it is best to make any data alteration as late as possible in the chain because of information losses, in some cases there is a certain trade-off against the added complexity of doing things later. Software vs. hardware is a typical case. (For example, there is a reason why people still use radios with tuners instead of USRPs and software-defined radio, which is clearly better.) You hint at that when you speak about "competent post-processing", by which you are making certain assumptions; imperfect post-processing is not necessarily superior to filtering the data beforehand. In this concrete case, a camera company might not have the expertise or manpower to do all the signal processing in software to replace a commercially-available AA filter. So if, as it happens, users complain about image problems that can be attributed to the M8's lack of an AA filter instead of only lauding the added sharpness etc., postprocessing evidently wasn't competent enough. On the other hand, this is easier to correct with the next version of the RAW converter than in hardware.

Philipp
 
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