Security Guards

[fraley]

I know this topic has been covered before, it's just that it happened to me twice in a row recently. There seems to be a lack of common sense on the part of some.

One weeked, I went to an outdoor concert venue, Stern Grove, in San Francisco. It was before the concert began. People were filling up the seats. No one was going to be on stage for a while. I took a crowd shot and a security guard immediately told me no pictures are allowed. Of an empty stage? I know pictures are allowed of each other, the audience takes pictures of their friends at these kinds of events.

The next weekend, I was in the San Francisco Shopping Centre, downtown on Market St. I was passing time while a family member was shopping across the street. We were to meet at a certain time. I was sitting at the food court, playing around with my Fed 2 which was recently back from repairs. I idly looked through the viewfinder at a shop across the way. There was a figure in the window. I didn't take a picture or think much about it. It's a bad habit I guess to look through the viewfinder when someone is in the line. Anyway it was unintentional. A little later as I was leaving, two security guards stopped me and asked what was I doing taking a picture of the girl in the store. I explained that I was just looking through the viewfinder and hadn't taken a picture, and besides there's nothing illegal about taking a picture. They wanted my name and personal information, which I didn't give. They said to wait while they called the San Francisco police to 'clear up this situation'. I said that was ridiculous and I had to leave. They didn't try to forcibly detain me but as I was walking away they said to remember, no pictures are allowed in the mall. I don't recall seeing any signs to that effect. I also know that teenagers take pictures of their friends all the time in the mall and post them on myspace, etc. I just answered as I was leaving that it was not illegal.

Both of these incidents disturbed me, the second one more so. I considered filing a complaint with the mall management. I would rather remain anonymous though, and also bringing it up with management will probably be like having to replay it. Maybe it's better to forget it. My wife thinks the girl in the store may be the girlfriend of the security guard. Hard to explain the reaction otherwise.

How do you handle being confronted?

 

[Ash]

well with the current terrorist/rapist/stalker culture, all these things are going to happen. I've seen someone have their digital camera taken away from them in the ASDA store, in the mall area - he was probably taking shots of the shops, and it isn't illegal, but most malls or stores will tell you it is policy that photography is not allowed.

Of course, they wait until you try before you find that out.

For an art course video, we went into a shopping center/mall, and we got away with shooting a video for 10 minutes in the middle of a walkway. As soon as we went to the escalators to shoot another scene we were threatened that our kit would be confiscated and there was no filming allowed.

Crazy at the timing, they only tell you AFTER they have footage of you doing the deed, obviously another 'policy' of gathering evidence before preventing an 'incident'

Refer to the post about street/public photography though, as you dont want to end up in trouble with these people (most security guards are part of a company that is employed in more than one facility, so you can end up blacklisted from a WHOLE city if you arent careful)


EDIT: being confronted, deny deny deny, but dont be cocky, act apologetic and definitely play dumb as dmr says. if you can't wriggle out of it challenge their knowledge of the law and try to twist their words to your advantage, also pull out a camera phone and record the incident in case they become abusive towards you

 

[dmr]

How do you handle being confronted?

Play dumb, apologize, move on.

 

[remrf]

The mall and the arena areas are private property and the owners can establish whatever rules they wish. The malls locally have signs at all the entrances dictating the rules to be followed therein. You can complain but I doubt you will get very far whether you actually took a photo or not. I don't like it but that is the way it is. The Tucson Convention center is not private property but they (the city) have established very similar rules concerning photography within the arena area.

 

[dmr]

I've seen someone have their digital camera taken away from them in the ASDA store, in the mall area

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but at least here in the States, I'm under the impression that a private security guard cannot (legally) confiscate your camera, film, or memory card.

About a year ago I and my attorney (this was off the clock at a bar after a meeting, so it wasn't really legal advice) talked about this, and I was told that all they can really do is escort you to the boundaries of their property, or turn you over to the real police if they think a crime has been committed. "If an arrest is made or a summons is issued, there must be a statute cited" is a direct quote from my attorney.

On the lighter side, if there is such a thing, a couple months ago I attended a production show in Las Vegas. As the lights dimmed they announced ... "Photography is not permitted in the theater. If you are caught taking pictures of the show, your film will be confiscated and you will be severely beaten!" 🙂

 

[Swissmadepix]

fraley, the two instances you mentioned, are to me indeed a "lack of common sense".

So far, I have never been confronted with a situation as you have described, neither at home nor abroad. I live in Switzerland but travel several times per year to the U.S.. I have noticed, these past 2 years, a tightening spiral of "non-sense", when so called security issues & photography meet.

Both incidents you tell us about, happened either on private property (mall) or venues where commercial reasons for non-photography apply (concert - they only want official photogs to shoot). While they DO have the right to prohibit photography, such prohibitions should be clearly marked or published. What you have encountered is IMHO fruit of a certain paranoia, when it comes to "security issues" in the U.S..

That said, I think I would not have handled it in any other way that you have - politeness and the knowledge of one's rights goes a long way.

Incidentally, last week I was cleaning up my bookmarks and came upon the "Photographer's Rights" - and your post prompted me to dig it up again.

While in no way affiliated with the attorney that composed it, I think it's a good read - not only in order to know what to do when one thinks his right have been violated - but foremost an overview on what the law says: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Have a wondy one and snap away !

Reto

 

[David Murphy]

If you try to photograph shop windows from a public street in Hong Kong some of them send out security guards to threaten you. Public photography is legal there and the police know that, but who the heck wants to get in a confrontation with gangsters and the police? I usually take a picture of the agitated security guard, flip him the bird, and move on. Some of them are cowardly and back down if you shake a fist at them.

My advice to street photographers is to be a man, get tough, and stand your ground.

 

[Ash]

My advice to street photographers is to be a man, get tough, and stand your ground.

unless they're bigger, muscley, and obviously going to kick it into you given the chance 😱

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

unless they're bigger, muscley, and obviously going to kick it into you given the chance 😱

In that case one could end up with more than enough cash to buy an M8 and a full compliment of lenses.

Whether or not your fingers were still operable would be another question.


🙂

 

[Swissmadepix]

Hmmmm....

Whether or not your fingers were still operable would be another question.🙂

...mouth-operated cable release an option ?

Pun apart and back on track: while I think that one can bend - correction - interpretate the rules in a creative way*, I also firmly believe that common courtesy is more effective than confrontation (heck..I'm Swiss..neutral
:angel: ).

If that does not help, it's best not to respond and to follow-up the incident with the knowledge of the law (aka, in the U.S.: assault, battery, destruction of property, theft, false imprisonment, etc.)


*creative way:
taking a street-style picture in a mall while prohibited is OK but taking one during an artistic performance and resell it is not.

 

[Solinar]

Most of these security guards make a little above mininum wage. What's the point in getting into a debate with one?

I'm not a big fan of American shopping malls. They're inhabited by cloned multinational chains.

 

[c.poulton]

Here in London, I have taken photographs in a large shopping mall at Canary Wharf with out any problems, however before taking any pictures I walked up to one of the security guards and explained what I was doing and asked whether it was OK to take photographs. He said 'sure', as long as I did not use a tripod. No further problems from then onwards, however the security probably had me on CCTV the whole time?

 

[Kim Coxon]

I must admit I found the attitude in France very refreshing. In the UK most museums and the such like ban photography. Not so in France. Everywhere we went around Paris and Versaille photography was permted. In some plces such as the churchs and art galleries, flash photography was banned but that is only understandable with a good reason. Either to protect the decorum or the paintings etc.

Vive La France.

Kim

 

[ampguy]

hi

hi

don't know about stern grove, and the concert policy -- btw, did you see aimee mann there?

fyi - tanforan mall is also not friendly to photographers, i don't know what the official policy is there, but was told on my way out by a security guard to not photograph in the mall again.

I know this topic has been covered before, it's just that it happened to me twice in a row recently. There seems to be a lack of common sense on the part of some.

One weeked, I went to an outdoor concert venue, Stern Grove, in San Francisco. It was before the concert began. People were filling up the seats. No one was going to be on stage for a while. I took a crowd shot and a security guard immediately told me no pictures are allowed. Of an empty stage? I know pictures are allowed of each other, the audience takes pictures of their friends at these kinds of events.

The next weekend, I was in the San Francisco Shopping Centre, downtown on Market St. I was passing time while a family member was shopping across the street. We were to meet at a certain time. I was sitting at the food court, playing around with my Fed 2 which was recently back from repairs. I idly looked through the viewfinder at a shop across the way. There was a figure in the window. I didn't take a picture or think much about it. It's a bad habit I guess to look through the viewfinder when someone is in the line. Anyway it was unintentional. A little later as I was leaving, two security guards stopped me and asked what was I doing taking a picture of the girl in the store. I explained that I was just looking through the viewfinder and hadn't taken a picture, and besides there's nothing illegal about taking a picture. They wanted my name and personal information, which I didn't give. They said to wait while they called the San Francisco police to 'clear up this situation'. I said that was ridiculous and I had to leave. They didn't try to forcibly detain me but as I was walking away they said to remember, no pictures are allowed in the mall. I don't recall seeing any signs to that effect. I also know that teenagers take pictures of their friends all the time in the mall and post them on myspace, etc. I just answered as I was leaving that it was not illegal.

Both of these incidents disturbed me, the second one more so. I considered filing a complaint with the mall management. I would rather remain anonymous though, and also bringing it up with management will probably be like having to replay it. Maybe it's better to forget it. My wife thinks the girl in the store may be the girlfriend of the security guard. Hard to explain the reaction otherwise.

How do you handle being confronted?

 

[ChrisN]

I must admit I found the attitude in France very refreshing. In the UK most museums and the such like ban photography. Not so in France. Everywhere we went around Paris and Versaille photography was permted. In some plces such as the churchs and art galleries, flash photography was banned but that is only understandable with a good reason. Either to protect the decorum or the paintings etc.

Vive La France.

Kim

Similar situation here - the Australian National Gallery, which houses a very large collection of signficiant artworks (including photographs!) allows non-flash photography for personal use. Anyone want a Blue Poles in B&W?

Shopping malls are regarded as private property, and the owner sets the rules. Generally they regard prohibit photography of shops displays, layout etc to protect the "intellectual property". Of course they are helpless to prevent this where people use a mobile phone camera, so they zero-in on us!

 

[Ergo]

"Play dumb, apologize, move on."

"My advice to street photographers is to be a man, get tough, and stand your ground."

Both are wrong.

Ignore and walk out.

 

[Solinar]

OT - I've noticed in two museum exhibits where there wasn't the usual security and instead of docents, the museum rented headphone sets with a digital audio player. One of them was a part of the King Tut collection.

 

[fraley]

Thanks everyone! Your posts are very helpful and interesting, all of them. It helps me put things in perspective. Reto, thanks for the link to Photographers' Rights and for your thoughtful response. Ampguy, it was the Aimee Mann show but I confess I didn't stick around for the show. One thing that I found helpful to get over any residual intimidation was to go to a tourist spot where everyone is pointing a camera everywhere. That loosened me up. Also posting here was helpful.

 

[harmsr]

Private security is just that private and with no arrest powers, except the same which you have as a normal citizen.

If it is not posted as no photography, ignore them and continue on. You would have the right to call the police over an assault or harassement charge if they continued. If they touch you and attempt to detain you physically, then add battery to the charge.

What a load of $$%^&&#$#.

The majority of security guards are guys that always wanted to be sworn LEO but could not make the grade. You will also find that if either side does call the police, the responding officer will most likely be on your side from the beginning unless a criminal violation has ocurred.

The most that a security guard could do is to call a manager from the store, who does have the right to ask you to leave.

They do NOT have the right to confiscate any film, cameras, or memory cards. That is theft on their part, and depending on value could be a felony.

Maybe it is just me, but I have fun backing them down in situations like that.

Ray

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Meanwhile someone else probably took an image with a cell phone and posted it on myspace.com. No one notices that.

Do they?