Self Censorship: Our Worst Enemy

sitemistic said:
Here's an example of the problem of critiques, as I see it, from the gallery here. The link below goes to a photo that is a technical disaster. It is out of focus, exhibits subject and camera motion and has poor contrast, everything I don't like in a photo. But it's actually a pretty strong image that represents how the photographer saw the scene better than the sharply focused, full toned image I would have created. How do you critique this image? On what basis?

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=73859&limit=recent


Beyond the photographer intentions, what I see is a very powerfull documentary type image, due to the strong presence and expression of the man at the left side. By no means it is a picture I would have left unseen at RFF. Technical disaster ? What ? To say it is a technical disaster will equate to look at the less important factor here.

Had you wrote it at the time, and had I saw your comment, it would have been the start of a thrilling discussion, for which the photog may have gained a lot.

I would need to look more pics of the same photographer to try to asses if she uses the out of focus effect purposedly or by accident. This would lead us to the second stage of discussion.

But even if had it been just an accident, this pic is absolutely worthy. That's my opinion.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
Let's not forget that Cappa too had his own out of focus restrictions imposed by circumstances, and if my memory doesn't cheat me, someone at the neighbourhood mentioned HCB too.

Propper proportions kept, I intentionally play sometimes with the out of focus stuff, purposedly. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
 
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These are Ben and his wife, taken with a Contax and 50mm f1.5 Sonnar about five years ago. This was at Salut restaurant in Queens, a Jewish/Uzbek place.






PS: I used to visit Ilse and her husband Konrad in the 1990's in their apartment on the Upper West Side. Here's a story for you. I once set up a stereo for them around 1992. She showed me a HUGE trunk full of Leicas and lenses, and accessories, some personally engraved to her from the factory.

I offered to buy them, but she didn't want to sell. She said to ask her in a few years. A few months after she died I found out the trunk and a lot of other valuables had disappeared. The same thing happened with Andy Warhol. He was a watch freak. He used to buy Pateks by the handful from a place on 45th Street. He would just throw them in a drawer. Maybe a million or more in watches in his drawer. I saw them. Hours after he died, someone cleaned out the joint.
 
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sitemistic said:
Ruben, you are missing my point. I don't like the photo because of the technical issues. What would it serve the photographer for me to tell him I don't like it. I'll bet you he knows that it has a bunch of technical problems. And doesn't care. Because it conveys what he wanted to convey. And a lot of people will like it.

Well sitemistic, I think I am repeating myself too much. So this will be my last.

Had you wrote at the time "I don't like the photo because of the technical issues", you could have opened a constructive and fruitfull discussion there about technical issues vs contents, what is before what, what should be taken into account, etc. etc etc.

Discussing for what ? For killing time ?, for out letting agressivness, for "entertainment" ?.

From such a discussion, the photog may have gained a lot, Ruben would have gained a lot, many other members may have gained a lot, and weather sitemistic may have gained something or nothing, it rather depends on his willingness to learn from others' opinions mixed with his own.

You are master of what you do. But in so far as I am concerned I have learned from this discussion thread here a lot, even before Fallisphoto contribution. With it, in addition, this thread is already a treasure of ideas.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
BTW, about great masters (you are free to include Samuel Pepys or Ilse Bing), I had the opportunity to personally hear via PM the most strong criticism on HCB I can possible imagine, as being done extremely polite the contents were sword accute.
This commentary came from one of the most rightfully respected members of our neighbourhood, and as you understand in so far he doesn't make it public, I will not either.

So what ? So even being a HCB is not the zenith of the Everest. We all are humans, we all will die some day. Life is quite wider than being a star, or being a genious. True, we will continue to speak about HCB for a long time ahead, but I am not sure he can hear us from his grave.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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sitemistic said:
Here's an example of the problem of critiques, as I see it, from the gallery here. The link below goes to a photo that is a technical disaster. It is out of focus, exhibits subject and camera motion and has poor contrast, everything I don't like in a photo. But it's actually a pretty strong image that represents how the photographer saw the scene better than the sharply focused, full toned image I would have created. How do you critique this image? On what basis?

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=73859&limit=recent
Great example! (I like the photo a lot, though its not at all "my kind of thing" . Now I'll have to figure out why.)

...Mike
 
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Thanks Ruben for this thread. It's great to hear the different perspectives from the posters. Fallisphoto, great post. These are my comments;)

As for the deli goers, is it better to have had great deli and lost, than to never have had deli at all? This question is from a jealous guy who grew up in the suburbs.
 
MikeL said:
As for the deli goers, is it better to have had great deli and lost, than to never have had deli at all? This question is from a jealous guy who grew up in the suburbs.

Tough question!

You heard Valdemar? "Losing these was truly a real tragedy for humanity." :angel:
 
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The critiques here are for five photographers to show one photo each. Only that group of five can comment on the photos. No outsiders.

By uploading to a thread you know your photo will be critiqued, and you know that you'll critique the other four. If you don't want that then don't join in.

The critiques there were usually fairly short and followed a formula of one positive statement and one constructive idea.

It's a good format that RayPA used to run, and I go back to my original response to Ruben (post #2) that he may well like to revive it.

It would make RFF more image centric.
 
What about requiring everyone who posts to a thread to include at least one photo?

How many people drone on and on without ever showing a single shot?
 
M. Valdemar said:
What about requiring everyone who posts to a thread to include at least one photo?

How many people drone on and on without ever showing a single shot?

Please no. I don't like photos of cats or brick walls!
 
So even being a HCB is not the zenith of the Everest. We all are humans, we all will die some day.

This, to me, seems an appeal to pure sentiment and an attempt to lionize mediocrity. Sure, we're all mortal, so in that sense we're all equal. It's a universal truth we sometimes forget, but it's still rather obvious. And mortality is a given isn't it? No one has to earn their mortality.

Since this is a photography website, I would hope that readers here would rather automatically give some greater measure of respect to HCB than they would to, say, some middle-aged guy with a nifty camera collection who gets hit by a bus. No disrespect to the latter, particularly if he's known to you, but HCB, no matter what your opinion of his photos, is a man who did nearly all a person can do with a camera in a lifetime. Simple observation, and a degree of humility, should make that clear enough.

I've read the comment numerous times on this, and other, photography websites that HCB is "over-rated," and there's a degree of truth in that; particularly on Leica forums, you read alot of reverential blather about the man solely because he used a Leica; lots of gear-related talk about what lens or body he used to get a particular shot, etc. What doesn't get discussed nearly often enough is his artist's eye for geometry and light and his hunter's instinct. People who should know better talk endlessly about his weapon of choice but entirely miss the point that it was his skill in its use that made him what he was. But he's not to blame for the internet buzz of people who think that owning the same brand of camera means they're walking in the man's footsteps, is he?

I'm guilty of this myself. I avoided looking closer at his work for a long time simply because I was tired of all the brand-obsessed chatter. And, I must confess, I allowed myself to believe for a time, on a subliminal level, at least, that owning the finest-made camera on the planet somehow made my pictures better. I was wrong on both counts, of course. His work is not diminished by the cult of brand worship attached to his name and mine was not improved by owning the same brand of camera he used.

I've wandered a little off track here, but even if HCB isn't at the "zenith of Everest," he's certainly somewhere near the summit for photographers not because his art is some unassailable model of photographic perfection (as if such a thing could even exist) but because he cleverly used the new technology of his day to create a new way of making photographs, and he left behind an impressive body of work. Between the mortal bookends of birth and death the man got a lot done with a camera. Whether you're a professional photographer or a hobbyist, you have to tip your cap to that.

In any event, thanks, Ruben, for starting a very lively thread. :)
 
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kevin m said:
This, to me, seems an appeal to pure sentiment and an attempt to lionize mediocrity.

Kevin, I think that we broadly agree, but I believe this comment may misinterpret Ruben’s point. Rather than praise mediocrity he is surely underlining our universal fallibility: Joe E. Brown also put this rather well :) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLJouEQ9qw

As you say, mortality is unearned and for that very reason all the dead are equal, for the greater worth of distant genius is not so apparent by the grave of a parent, partner or child. Without wishing to give offence, it is clear that for some Cartier Bresson has attained an almost messianic status. In a recent BBC programme a presumably intelligent critic asserted that his famous puddle picture - Derriere la Gare St Lazare (1932) - foretold the Holocaust. It would surely be hard to imagine a more fatuous remark, but it typifies an attitude in which HCB’s real function is to make photography safe for intellectuals. The trouble is that such an approach obscures the real and necessarily imperfect achievement of an artist .

By judging HCB - or anyone else - as simply another human being and photographer we at last pay him genuine respect , understand the scale of what he did and, incidentally, may begin to appreciate the work of a forgotten generation of 35mm photographers lost behind the myth of a solitary, innovative genius. Photography is supremely demotic and I feel that understanding its history as a succession of illuminated masters is extremely mistaken. I would suggest that the summit of the art is not so much a peak as a wide, densely populated and yet largely unexplored plateau. :)

Cheers, Ian
 
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Hi Kevin,
If I was commisioned one day to give a lecture about HCB, I think I would do a good job, showing a great respect for one of he milestones of photography ever, and peraps the most important one in the genre of Street Photograpy, that is the one who concerns me most. Furthermore, if to my great surprise, heaven and hell do exist and I happen to meet HCB in one of them, I will approach him, shake his hand, and humbly say "Thanks You".

So take a rest, make yourself a coffee. From now on I will need to recruit your biggest symphaty to open your heart to a human problem, directly touching each of us here.

We humans carry a problem from our very beggining on the planet, for which we have not found yet a solution: FEAR. Out of fear we have created religions, and after religions we have created secular variations, called "ideologies". We allways need a guide, a superhero to lead us. We are so afraid of what we don't know that we don't manage to overcome it, but under a mythological shadow.

Therefore in every order of life when an outstanding man appears, we attach him magical powers. When this man dies, WE, those after him, create his legacy.

This kind of mythological legacy stands in the way of us. It stands in the way of the young photographer pushing art to be accepted and allow him to have a material substain.

And it stands in the way of those of us who recognize our limits and still want to live a life of creativity, in which we can look at what we have done and realistically say: "Yes, it is not a HCB image, and still it is extremely worth one, I am pleased, I am proud for what I have done, my creative life has value and it is not only in my imagination".

We need a space under the sky. We cannot have it if the gods have all the space for themselves.

As you can see this post, and yours regarding the propper place of HCB, are very much related to the rest of the thread, in which the issue of fear repeated itself so much.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS,
Ho Ian, I see you arrived earlier - but as you know I am too proud an egoist to delete mine, repeating yours.
 
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ruben said:
Hi Fallis,

What a nice piece have you brought !

Kindly excuss me for not noticing it earlier, and just now here it is 04:39 AM.
Ceirtainly your piece deserves my fullest attention, first thing in the morning.

Just include in your attention we all are a very variyed crowd, including different aspirations, backgrounds, interests, personal wishes and approaches. This is both our Aquilles point and our strength.

Cheers,
Ruben

Thank you. In that other forum's art gallery, where I have made it pretty plain that I don't value comments and do value critiques, I get a lot of comments, from people who think they are giving critiques. Someone asked "what's the difference?" so I told them.
 
Therefore in every order of life when an outstanding man appears, we attach him magical powers. When this man dies, WE, those after him, create his legacy. This kind of mythological legacy stands in the way of us.

Agreed, Ruben. I don't place any man up on a pedestal, if I can remember not to do it. If anything, making a 'god' out of a person diminishes their achievements. OTOH, I don't think this man, in particular, deserves to have his art diminished just because the camera he used has become a status symbol of sorts. :)
 
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