Thardy
Veteran
After thinking about it a little, I can see how some buyers can be real pains, by claiming to never receive items, opening disputes via ebay and paypal when no real injury has occurred, unjustifiably charging back credits cards, etc. ....
sepiareverb
genius and moron
crawdiddy said:
But how does making all buyers 'perfect' level the playing field? As a seller I wait to hear back from the buyer that the item has arrived and is as they expected. This seems fair to me. I don't expect to get feedback as a buyer before I let the seller know the item has arrived, and is as expected. I've been on both sides of drawn out returns and arguments over things not being what the other expected. And nearly every single time it works out fine. But giving accurate feedback is what we are supposed to do. Is paying fast the only requirement of a buyer? No it is not. Letting the seller know the item has arrived, not making a needed return into a month long chain of emails, being polite and helpful if such a return is needed. I could leave positive feedback five minutes after my Paypal gets credited and then have the buyer demand a refund after the item arrives, and wait weeks to return it if at all. Then the next seller has no idea what kind of games the buyer might play. Feedback needs to be a two-way street. What makes a buyer think that if the transaction is bad for them it can't be bad for the seller as well?
Again, the vast majority of transactions are fine. If feedback becomes a useless number I think the whole system becomes less reliable.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
ErikFive said:
And we all know what great deals they offer!
(Am I allowed to say this? No disrespect intended to such a wonderful ebay seller:angel: )
foto_fool
Well-known
The buyer has completed their end of the deal when they have paid, so the seller should leave feedback then? Well, that's just so much horses**t.
The few times I have had trouble with buyers it has been some little turd with a chip on his/her shoulder with complaints that an accurate description of "used" turned out to be something other than brand new, or that FedEx overnight was not fast enough when they were not there to receive the shipment. I have willingly refunded full purchase price, and ate shipping, shipping return and listing costs, and still maintained 100% positive feedback by being able to tell the troublesome buyer that we won't leave any feedback for each other, right?
This is the only thing I will miss as a seller - not being able to threaten negative feedback - even when my intention is to leave no feedback at all - when a buyer misbehaves.
The few times I have had trouble with buyers it has been some little turd with a chip on his/her shoulder with complaints that an accurate description of "used" turned out to be something other than brand new, or that FedEx overnight was not fast enough when they were not there to receive the shipment. I have willingly refunded full purchase price, and ate shipping, shipping return and listing costs, and still maintained 100% positive feedback by being able to tell the troublesome buyer that we won't leave any feedback for each other, right?
This is the only thing I will miss as a seller - not being able to threaten negative feedback - even when my intention is to leave no feedback at all - when a buyer misbehaves.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
foto_fool said:
Well said.
luketrash
Trying to find my range
The issue with ebay is you have the whole world out there driving up the price of photo gear to near or greater than KEH prices. A lot of times the only money you're saving is on shipping at that point. Therefore when the sellers are less than honest, I like to give them my -honest- opinion about their misrepresentation. You can't really do that though since these same unscrupulous sellers are the ones that withold feedback.
As a seller, I hate ebay's rates. It's much cheaper to sell cameras and gear here on RFF (and has been much better % sold for me.)
It cost me 25 dollars to list (and not sell) my Hasselblad for a 610 dollar ending price after a non paying bidder didn't come through.
Meanwhile it only cost me 90 dollars total to sell a 30,000 dollar Ford Model A hotrod. Selling super expensive stuff on there is a good deal. However, if you're wanting to unload several 10-20 dollar cameras, it's better to just try to sell them locally or on here.
I am happy ebay exists. I've bought quite a few goofy things there I'd never find locally.
I also agree with their pricing. Cutting the cost of inserting items and making up the difference on items that actually sell is fine by me. That makes a lot of sense.
I still am not 100% sure how the no negative feedback for buyers is going to work though.
I still have a three year old open paypal dispute over a winning judgement on a case where a guy didn't send me an Olympus Stylus Epic I paid 30 bucks for. They will garnish his paypal funds and pay me back IF he ever puts money into his account again, which he obviously has not.
Lame. The 2000 dollar buyer protection only means that ebay will take whatever money the person has IN his paypal account to pay you back. Some protection....
As a seller, I hate ebay's rates. It's much cheaper to sell cameras and gear here on RFF (and has been much better % sold for me.)
It cost me 25 dollars to list (and not sell) my Hasselblad for a 610 dollar ending price after a non paying bidder didn't come through.
Meanwhile it only cost me 90 dollars total to sell a 30,000 dollar Ford Model A hotrod. Selling super expensive stuff on there is a good deal. However, if you're wanting to unload several 10-20 dollar cameras, it's better to just try to sell them locally or on here.
I am happy ebay exists. I've bought quite a few goofy things there I'd never find locally.
I also agree with their pricing. Cutting the cost of inserting items and making up the difference on items that actually sell is fine by me. That makes a lot of sense.
I still am not 100% sure how the no negative feedback for buyers is going to work though.
I still have a three year old open paypal dispute over a winning judgement on a case where a guy didn't send me an Olympus Stylus Epic I paid 30 bucks for. They will garnish his paypal funds and pay me back IF he ever puts money into his account again, which he obviously has not.
Lame. The 2000 dollar buyer protection only means that ebay will take whatever money the person has IN his paypal account to pay you back. Some protection....
Krosya
Konicaze
I don't think this will last long - as soon as Ebay loses many sellers, they will go back to the way things were. After all - this is how they make money.
photobizzz
Speak of the Devil
I dont really like the idea but, as a seller I am not worried...I ship fast and accurately represent. If I encounter a seller that screws me, I will blast his ebay name on every forum and recieve the satisfaction that he has just lost a significant amount of business. I have never done that and it seems extreme but never say never...
jolefler
Established
I have a mere 250 or so auction site transactions. As stated before, when selling I hold buyer feedback. To say the buyer's responsibility ends when they pay is simply ludicrous....luckily my event happened early in my e-sales history.
My Hong Kong buyer of a Vito paid promptly, and I shipped via air the next day. Upon receipt of the camera, he immediately stated false claims of lens fungus, inop shutter and corrosion with eBay and Paypal. (The camera was in my working stable, had a CLA within the past two years and had none of those afflictions). All of this with the aim of getting a judgement against me whilst keeping the camera. To make a sad story shorter, eBay suspended him relatively quickly, as he had quite a few of these claims working simultaneously, but not before I got hit with my only negative.
When I buy, I pay promptly and leave feedback as soon as I receive the item to show that I received it and am satisfied. I'm satisfied whether it works or not......I'm a big boy and I bought it off eBay, not KEH, Ritz or Adorama.
My Hong Kong buyer of a Vito paid promptly, and I shipped via air the next day. Upon receipt of the camera, he immediately stated false claims of lens fungus, inop shutter and corrosion with eBay and Paypal. (The camera was in my working stable, had a CLA within the past two years and had none of those afflictions). All of this with the aim of getting a judgement against me whilst keeping the camera. To make a sad story shorter, eBay suspended him relatively quickly, as he had quite a few of these claims working simultaneously, but not before I got hit with my only negative.
When I buy, I pay promptly and leave feedback as soon as I receive the item to show that I received it and am satisfied. I'm satisfied whether it works or not......I'm a big boy and I bought it off eBay, not KEH, Ritz or Adorama.
Ebay has a lot of crooks on it, Sellers and Buyers. I've dealt with both in using Ebay for 10 years now. A lot of crooked sellers got by using feedback as a weapon.
Ebay should also require that serial numbers of items being sold be displayed with the auction, and go into a database. We've had a couple of RFF members spot their stolen item up on auction.
Ebay should also require that serial numbers of items being sold be displayed with the auction, and go into a database. We've had a couple of RFF members spot their stolen item up on auction.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Feedback as a weapon.
If one is so worried about an 'unscrupulous seller' then don't buy from them. If a deal is too good to be true there is a reason, and rarely is that reason that you're the only one who happened upon the auction.
A serial number display is a good idea. Better than making all buyers into saints.
If one is so worried about an 'unscrupulous seller' then don't buy from them. If a deal is too good to be true there is a reason, and rarely is that reason that you're the only one who happened upon the auction.
A serial number display is a good idea. Better than making all buyers into saints.
crawdiddy
qu'est-ce que c'est?
sepiareverb said:
Hi, sepiareverb,
Perhaps my reaction reflects the fact that I have primarily been on the buying side of the transaction. And also, that I have never returned an item from an ebay seller. Maybe I've just been lucky, or maybe it's that I'm careful who I purchase from, and do my due diligence. I ask questions, and I usually expect the seller to exaggerate the quality or value of what he's offering somewhat, so I don't end up disappointed. For whatever reasons, I have never returned anything. I email when shipments arrive, if requested by the seller. And sometimes, after emailing upon arrival, I wait to provide feedback. I have almost never gotten any feedback from a seller before I left feedback. I think this is more than coincidental.
The only time I left any comments which can be regarded as unfavorable for a seller, the seller retaliated with unfavorable comments about me.
I did not mean to imply you are an unscrupulous seller, or any other posters to this thread. Obviously this topic has ignited passions on both sides, but definitely polarized according to their normal role in the transaction.
Silva Lining
CanoHasseLeica
I welcome the new changes...
I am predominantly a buyer on eBay, but when do sell I do wait until I know the buyer has received the item and left feedback before leaving feedback myself. The reason I do this is not to flame the buyer if they complain, but to leave the arena open for discussion and remedy without resorting to a rather pointless negative feedback flaming. I consider that feedback should be left at the conclusion of the transaction, which to my mind is when the buyer has happily received the item I have sold them.
I have bought many an item on eBay that has turned out to be a load of old crap - one seller in particular who I have commented on before on RFF is a real a**hole to people who complain - I left him no feedback - but as he has over 100k feedbacks I doubt he will care.
In contrast, I have had many a great deal on eBay and overall am WAY ahead
I am predominantly a buyer on eBay, but when do sell I do wait until I know the buyer has received the item and left feedback before leaving feedback myself. The reason I do this is not to flame the buyer if they complain, but to leave the arena open for discussion and remedy without resorting to a rather pointless negative feedback flaming. I consider that feedback should be left at the conclusion of the transaction, which to my mind is when the buyer has happily received the item I have sold them.
I have bought many an item on eBay that has turned out to be a load of old crap - one seller in particular who I have commented on before on RFF is a real a**hole to people who complain - I left him no feedback - but as he has over 100k feedbacks I doubt he will care.
In contrast, I have had many a great deal on eBay and overall am WAY ahead
Kim Coxon
Moderator
In very many cases, the feedback left for buyers is not genuine anyway. I have found that most eBay "dealers" and other high volume sellers use an automatic feedback system. They have 10 or so "standard" replies for Pos/Neutral and Neg. As soon as you post yours, it picks a "like" and pots it automatically. The only sellers who tend to write "real" feedback are the small guys.
Kim
Kim
nico
Well-known
jolefler said:
That's what I hate about buying on ebay.
IMO if I have to pay first I should get a positive feedback after payment not after leaving a feedback to the seller. If I leave a negative one because I've been not satisfied then I'll get a negative one back so, in the end, I'll pay to collect a negative feedback ... and a broken camera. Not a great deal I'd say.
BillBingham2
Registered User
I'm not happy with the changes at all, but eBay has the largest set of buyers out there so there I will stay, for now. I sell stuff here or other camera sites first and then when it does not go, over to EvilBay.
I'm very unhappy with the current system and the changes only make things worse for me. I want to sell small stuff and lots of it in the future. Their new rates make it much harder to turn a buck.
B2 (;->
I'm very unhappy with the current system and the changes only make things worse for me. I want to sell small stuff and lots of it in the future. Their new rates make it much harder to turn a buck.
B2 (;->
sepiareverb
genius and moron
crawdiddy said:
I did not get this impression at all from your post, but thanks.
crawdiddy said:
On the contrary, I buy far more than I sell on ebay.
As Kim speculates, it may be us 'small guys' (now one might take offense there
) who are less likely to be retaliatory, and provide a more considered feedback, but I bet we all have a few 'regular' phrases that crop up in the feedback we give as buyer or seller. How many ways can one say "Great transaction" or "Excellent Communication"?My main concern is that the feedback system will no longer be of the same use to a seller as it is now when dealing with folks who are asking questions. I really don't want to spend my time figuring out how much it will cost to send something to Kucamunga for someone whose feedback shows them to sometimes be a PITA to deal with after their payment is sent, but for someone with 100% feedback that shows them to be a 'straight dealer' I will. I pick who I buy from this way as well. Just like picking the place you buy your gas, if one has friendly clerks and the other has jerks I'll go to friendly.
Kim Coxon
Moderator
I have bought and sold. I have come across a couple of "higher" volume sellers who have been very unscrupulous but their feedback has not shown it. From comments here and many places elsewhere, I strongly believe that this is dur to fear of retaliation. I have had a couple of minor problems from buyers. A couple of non payers and a change of mind. In all the cases, they bid right at the end and there was nothing their feedback could tell me. Some time ago, NPB feedback was useful but now eBay is much more pro-active in dealing with that. I don't think a "trouble" buyer will ask questions before auction end. IMHO, the ones that ask are generally the better buyers.
In any case, you can still leave feedback. There is no rule on what words you put under the positive. I have always found reading the comments to be far more informative than the numbers anyway. It just takes a little longer. The thing that will kill a lot for me is the hike in FVFs. In some cases, especially photographic items, the total cost is now approaching 10%. If I don't sell here, all my better gear will now go to somewhere like Ffordes to be sold on commision. They get a higher price and charge 20%. It is not worth the hassle of eBay if I can get the same through a dealer.
Kim
In any case, you can still leave feedback. There is no rule on what words you put under the positive. I have always found reading the comments to be far more informative than the numbers anyway. It just takes a little longer. The thing that will kill a lot for me is the hike in FVFs. In some cases, especially photographic items, the total cost is now approaching 10%. If I don't sell here, all my better gear will now go to somewhere like Ffordes to be sold on commision. They get a higher price and charge 20%. It is not worth the hassle of eBay if I can get the same through a dealer.
Kim
sepiareverb said:As Kim speculates, it may be us 'small guys' (now one might take offense there
My main concern is that the feedback system will no longer be of the same use to a seller as it is now when dealing with folks who are asking questions. I really don't want to spend my time figuring out how much it will cost to send something to Kucamunga for someone whose feedback shows them to sometimes be a PITA to deal with after their payment is sent, but for someone with 100% feedback that shows them to be a 'straight dealer' I will. I pick who I buy from this way as well. Just like picking the place you buy your gas, if one has friendly clerks and the other has jerks I'll go to friendly.
gdi
Veteran
This is long over due - I see more and more bold demands for feedback from sellers which simply state that they leave the same feedback they receive. What value is that to the community? ZIP! !!
The current feedback system is so useless - I never even think about giving feedback on a purchase till the seller does so first. If they never leave it then its fine with me. It is incredibly rare to have a buyer issue a chargeback compared to a seller sending a SNAD item.
And you can be sure this will not result in many good sellers leaving eBay - if it means the crappy sellers are exposed and leave, who cares?
The current feedback system is so useless - I never even think about giving feedback on a purchase till the seller does so first. If they never leave it then its fine with me. It is incredibly rare to have a buyer issue a chargeback compared to a seller sending a SNAD item.
And you can be sure this will not result in many good sellers leaving eBay - if it means the crappy sellers are exposed and leave, who cares?
BillBingham2
Registered User
gdi,
Interesting point. I would rather see how many times they have sold, high and mean value, number of items bid on, number won. That to me would be much more meaningful.
B2 (;->
Interesting point. I would rather see how many times they have sold, high and mean value, number of items bid on, number won. That to me would be much more meaningful.
B2 (;->