Should I buy a...?

[Gumby]

There's always a gamble involved in buying second-hand cameras (and indeed, most other things). It just seems to me that generalizations ABOUT VERY OLD CAMERAS (bold caps not for you but for others who have missed this bit) are a lot less useful than generalizations about more modern cameras THAT HAVE NOT SUFFERED THE WEAR AND TEAR AND DUBIOUS REPAIRS OF SEVERAL DECADES.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

 

[Doug]

I hesitate to enter a contentious discussion, but... Having bought a number of cameras suffering from "intervening decades", one does take one's chances. I'd try for a camera with attractive operational features when new that is likely to be economical to bring back to as-new operation. I do think it should be expected that the old kit will need a CLA unless the seller can document recent service. Old gear that was good when new is likely to be good refurbished.

I have nothing older than 50 years, but that represents some intervening decades! Both the M2 and Pentax were made in 1957 and work fine after CLA. Another old Pentax had been bunged in the nose with sufficient force to cross-thread the lens focusing helix. Fixed ok. Another less old had sat wet long enough to corrode the lens mount and meter circuitry in the baseplate, fixed with spare parts but an unexpected expense. It's always somewhat of a gamble, and any recommendation must be general to the type or model after CLA/restoration.

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . a general consensus is likely to be helpful regardless of the specific item. But then one should know how to evaluate the specific item of interest.

Because granted, most cameras that are 40 years old are bound to run into mechanical issues soon.

Dear Chris,

Thanks; you have clarified the whole thing.

My basic concern was, indeed, with the evaluation of the specific rather than the general, and it seems to me that some inquirers, and some of those who respond, are not making this distinction adequately clearly.

Those who inquire sometimes seem not to know enough about cameras in general to ask the right questions, and to assume that an RFF consensus is a bit like a new camera review. But with a new camera (or lens) you can just send it back if it doesn't come up to spec. With one that's 40-50 years old, you need to expect the occasional problem, even with the very finest and toughest kit (Leica M, Nikon F, Rolleiflex...)

Those who respond, on the other hand, sometimes seem prone to sweeping generalizations: 'All _________ are verging on perfection' or 'All ________ are crap' rather than 'I've got a good one' or 'I was not satisfied with the two I had.'

Cheers,

Roger

 

[sebastel]

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

i'd go one step further: it is so true that it is pointless already.
you must be quite ignorant to expect a similar performance and condition from 50 year old gear like from brand new stuff.

this does not mean that there are no such antique marvels - but better not expect them. at least not at low prices.

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . Though model choice is valid. I myself had never had a Nikon in my hands untill a couple of weeks ago😱 so I asked here about a few models which I had noted as a possible purchase, and received useful replies from members who had used them.

Dear Richard,

Oh, sure. But oner of the things that used to annoy me was when someone asked, 'Should I get an F or an F2?' and received the reply 'No, you need an FE2'.

Then I realized that such responses are potentially helpful -- another Nikon option -- but if they are phrased as 'No, both the F and F2 are hopelessly outdated, what you need is a _____' they are less helpful than if phrased as, 'I know you asked about A and B, but have you considered C?'

Cheers,

Roger

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

Oh, sure. But one of the things that used to annoy me was when someone asked, 'Should I get an F or an F2?' and received the reply 'No, you need an FE2'.

Then I realized that such responses are potentially helpful -- another Nikon option -- but if they are phrased as 'No, both the F and F2 are hopelessly outdated, what you need is a _____' they are less helpful than if phrased as, 'I know you asked about A and B, but have you considered C?'

That is the most sensible thing I have seen on RFF in a long time.

 

[Roger Hicks]

That is the most sensible thing I have seen on RFF in a long time.

Dear Jon,

Thanks.

To expand on it a little, if someone asks about choosing between two Nikons, maybe he's got a lot of Nikon glass, or other reasons to choose Nikon. Suggesting Canon or Pentax instead should be done more tentatively than suggesting a third variety of Nikon.

Likewise, if he's asking about mechanical cameras, maybe he wants to avoid battery dependency; and if he's asking about TLRs, maybe he's considered SLRs and rejected them. It's legitimate to ask. "Why have you ruled out SLRs?" or even to say "In your position I'd consider an SLR because..." but all too often you get flip or even aggressive replies suggesting something completely different -- large format, say -- without any qualification such as 'This works for me because...'

What I'm thinking about is inquirers who appear to be about to spend quite large sums of money on something they know nothing about (where the best advice is 'postpone the purchase until you know more') and replies that don't really come within a mile of answering the question.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[oscroft]

To expand on it a little, if someone asks about choosing between two Nikons, maybe he's got a lot of Nikon glass, or other reasons to choose Nikon. Suggesting Canon or Pentax instead should be done more tentatively than suggesting a third variety of Nikon

What I find slightly frustrating (but only in an amusing way - I'm really not upset, because I know people are genuinely trying to help) is when someone sets some parameters for a purchase (eg maximum price) and asks for suggestions, and a lot of people ignore those parameters and suggest their own favourite stuff regardless.

For example, some time ago I asked for some suggestions for a cheap (I specified my approx limit) but reasonably accurate meter, only for daylight use. And among the suggestions were some for meters costing hundreds of pounds that were super accurate for flash metering too. (But please note I'm not having a go at people who made such suggestions, because I was grateful for them all - I'm only using the example to illustrate one of the things I think Roger is getting at. And I did get a good consensus on what to get, and it wasn't too far over my budget 😀)

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . (But please note I'm not having a go at people who made such suggestions, because I was grateful for them all - I'm only using the example to illustrate one of the things I think Roger is getting at.

That is indeed the sort of thing I was pointing at in the last post (though not in the original, which was solely to do with elderly gear -- hell, I'm drifting in my own thread...)

Again, it's how the replies are phrased. To say, "I know it's outside your budget, but..." and then to give arguments for the more expensive meter is one thing; to say "No, what you need is..." is quite another.

I never mind being told why someone else thinks something is a good idea. I do however take it very ill when they dismiss my reasoning and try to tell me that their way is better than mine. I resent this even on the rare occasions that their way IS better, if they phrase it arrogantly; and I REALLY resent it if I have thought it through carefully for my situation, and they haven't.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

What I find slightly frustrating (but only in an amusing way - I'm really not upset, because I know people are genuinely trying to help) is when someone sets some parameters for a purchase (eg maximum price) and asks for suggestions, and a lot of people ignore those parameters and suggest their own favourite stuff regardless.

Yes.

There is a thread running here right now.

The member is asking about choosing an Olympus RC or an XA.

He clearly says he can afford one, but not both.

And people here tell him to buy both anyway and sell the one he dislikes.

 

[rxmd]

There is a thread running here right now.

The member is asking about choosing an Olympus RC or an XA.

He clearly says he can afford one, but not both.

And people here tell him to buy both anyway and sell the one he dislikes.

They're probably used to buying things on credit.

Philipp

 

[rxmd]

and that being an artist makes them better than those who have an interest in gear.

Well it won't make them better persons, but I do believe it makes them better artists, which was kind of Jon's point if I understand correctly.

Gear is a distraction. I'd probably prefer a craftsman who has a drill he knows and trusts, than one who spends a lot of time and money collecting drills and talking about them. I don't want his knowledge on drills, I need someone who knows how to work wood.

Philipp

 

[tripod]

Well it won't make them better persons, but I do believe it makes them better artists, which was kind of Jon's point if I understand correctly.

Gear is a distraction. I'd probably prefer a craftsman who has a drill he knows and trusts, than one who spends a lot of time and money collecting drills and talking about them. I don't want his knowledge on drills, I need someone who knows how to work wood.

Philipp

Good analogy, rxmd, but there is an intermediate possibility: a carpenter with both a hand drill for delicate work, and a power drill for when it's appropriate. I'd prefer to hire that one.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Good analogy, rxmd, but there is an intermediate possibility: a carpenter with both a hand drill for delicate work, and a power drill for when it's appropriate. I'd prefer to hire that one.

My oldest friend is an astonishingly skilled woodworker, who in addition to his woodworking day job makes things to see how it's done: the keyed joints on an Athenian galley, for example. He knows a great deal about (for example) draw-knives and spokeshaves, and the restoration of old ones: there are some techniques that are easiest done with old tools, apparently.

I'm not sure I'd have much time for any craftsman who wasn't familiar with the choice of tools available, and who didn't discriminate in favour of the ones that work best for them. Another friend is a hairdresser (owns 2 salons and a school) and pays $100 or more for a pair of good scissors.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[BillBingham2]

If it was

If it was

And the photographer said 'I liked your last book, what sort of word processor did you use for that?'

If it was Phil Donahue he used to have a WANG in his bed room...😱

B2 (;->

 

[brachal]

One of my musical heroes, Eugene Chadbourne, once wrote that a good musician can make good music with a bad instrument. He'll get a feel for the instrument, understand its shortcomings, and is skilled enough to play around them. With a good or great instrument, the music will be that much better. A bad musician, on the other hand, will produce bad music no matter what quality of instrument he uses. I think you could say the same about photography.

 

[BillBingham2]

Roger,

I do not think there is anything wrong with folks asking which should they buy, they are looking for guidance and experience. They should follow it on with the "What should I look for?" question, some do and some don't.

Right now I am lusting for a Ruger MKII. We take my sons shooting and I would like to get back into it. Problem is I need to buy used as they only make the MKIII now and my budget is very low. So I posted a question on another board (rugerforum) to see what I should look for in buying that used pistol. Compared to here the responses have been somewhat lake luster but I do not know the personality over there. One answer was great but I need to do some digging as to how I look for what he said.

My purchasing any one of a series of different MKII models is very depended upon what is available, but the guts are mostly the same and so are the issues. Now if I was asking should I get a Walther P22 or a MKII then I expect I would a lot of personal opinions, along with some warnings about early P22s being picky about ammo and jamming a lot (they needed some tweaking). It's the same when you look at some one asking should they get a Nikon S2, a Canon P or a Leica IIIf. Good answers come back with things to watch for, experienced or 2nd hand, thoughts and dreams and opinions. After reading lots of posts on those cool little Fuji 6x4.5 collapsables I found out what caused the largest issue and decided not to go that way, though I still long for one at times.

The wonderful thing about this site is the sharing of experience, ideas, opinions and dreams. It's not prefect for everyone, but it is way close enough for me. Oh, the pictures are pretty cool too.

B2 (;->

 

[sebastel]

If it was Phil Donahue he used to have a WANG in his bed room...😱

B2 (;->

wasn't it more like " ... he used to have a bed in his WANG room ..."?

 

[BillBingham2]

Not quite

Not quite

wasn't it more like " ... he used to have a bed in his WANG room ..."?

In the early to late '80s I did a lot with and eventually work at WANG Labs. I was in the NY Financial District, some of my friends were in one of the other districts that support the company that he worked at. He had a WANG OIS (Office Information System) word processor in his bedroom because he used to get ideas at all hours and wanted to capture them.

I was luckier at meeting cool people when I worked at CBS than at WANG. I worked with some geniuses both at customers and up in Lowell, but at CBS I got to meet Cindy Lauper, Charles Osgood and some others.

B2 (;->

 

[BillP]

Hey Bill,

I meant water colors, the kind that come in little tubes and you dilute with water, then mix them in in a little ceramic well. Plastic well these days I guess. And 'stink' was figurative and in 'I always end up with muddy brown and make a hole in the paper'.

I have seen some beautiful watercolor paintings, but I suspect they cheated and photoshopped it! 😉 Acrylic has become my (paint) medium of choice and I thought I should add to that sub-part of this thread. I also posted about where I stand on asking for buying advice in internet fora. I'm in favor of it when folks like Ned are so willing to share their passion.

We *are* on the same page, Chris, and a very nice, handmade, deckle-edged one it is too...!

Regards,

Bill