sick of reliability issues...

[Lss]

None of my Canon pro bodies have ever failed me.

All Canon DLSR's (most of them consumer models, some 1-series) I have owned myself or used for at least a day have failed me resulting in lost shots and/or shot opportunities. Memory cards have also failed me resulting in lost shots, only when used with Canon DLSR's, though. These things happen.

 

[x-ray]

I don't think Leicas problem is the sensor as much as it is design and execution of the camera. Hasselblad uses a Kodak sensor and hot and dead pixels are virtually non existent. I think Phase used some of the Kodak sensors without issues.

For those who have bought a new M8 & M9 you could have purchased a new Phase 1 camera, high mp back and lens or a new Hasselblad back or demo H4D 31mp camera and lens.

My feeling is Leica doesn't have the financial resources and design team to pull it off. My guess is they are farming the design out to a third party and Leica doesn't have the expertise to know good and bad in design. Just my guess. Whatever it is Leica isn't in the same class as even Canon and Nikon much less the MF makers. Again my opinion after using Leica for forty four years I'd they exist on name not quality and innovation.

Leica isn't the same company it was in the 60's and before. Mybequipment I bought in the 60's never gave problems but my most recent equipment has been less than stellar in reliability. Of all the gear I've owned and used heavily in my business over the fourcshd a half decades the least reliable was a pair of Rollei 3003's which were mechanical disasters and the nextis my late model Leica M lenses and body. Oh yes I would say a close 2nd to the Rollei equipment was my Leicaflex SL bodies. I had two regular SL's and a MOT. One or two were in the shop at all times.

 

[dcsang]

I'd keep the film Leicas and buy a Nikon D700 for digital. OK, you'll need a complete set of Nikon lenses, but you can buy old MF lenses for peanuts.

This is exactly what I have done.

For any couples "wanting" film work (I may soon not even mention the word "film" and just show the images - the couples can decide for themselves) I have my M7s and Rolleiflex. For anyone wanting hard/fast digital stuff - I've got my D700s - I can't (after my M8 experience) go back to Leica digital right now even if I wanted to without selling all my Nikon gear to just get the money for an M9 body (and a half).

I honestly thought Leica had gotten their act together (per se) when they released the M9 - it's now well into its lifecycle and while I know that not every M9 (or M9P) has issues, I just need something, as Phil has said, that is a bit more reliable for the $7000 I'd be spending.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Phil_F_NM]

I don't think Leicas problem is the sensor as much as it is design and execution of the camera. Hasselblad uses a Kodak sensor and hot and dead pixels are virtually non existent. I think Phase used some of the Kodak sensors without issues.

This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.

Regardless, it's just not right for Leica to be producing and selling such a product at such a price without taking care of the problem itself. We need more camera and service for the money we spend.

Leica can't ride the wave of their past service and reliability forever. I'm eagerly awaiting to see what happens in a few days after the first M9 warranties are up and how the successive M9 users are treated when they have to pay for repairs.

Phil Forrest

 

[x-ray]

I think you'll see a flood of M9's as the warranties end. I also think you're right that Leica can't ride in past reputation forever. There are too many other digital alternatives for the same or less money without the issues. I've used Leica M's for forty four years and would have bought a digital version if I had felt it was reliable and the bugs had been worked out before hitting the market. For $7k I'm not about to become Leicas beta tester.

 

[Archiver]

The only issues I have had with the M9 were with taking a photo immediately during wake-up, and a shutter fault.

My M9 will occasionally take a black image if I try to press the shutter button all the way down when the camera is in sleep mode. If I hold the button down, the camera seems to wake up after a few seconds, but it only takes a black image. This does not happen under any other circumstance, so I make sure that I wake up the camera with a half-press before I take a photo.

The shutter fault was a bit of a surprise. At first it started to recock itself immediatley after taking a photo, even though I was in discreet mode. About ten images later, it locked up and I couldn't take any more photos. Everything else worked except for the shutter.

I took it to our local Leica techicians - Camera Clinic in Melbourne - and they told me that the recocking motor had become jammed, but they would need to replace the shutter mechanism to be sure. They unjammed the camera and gave it back to me, and when the new shutter arrived they replaced it. Not only that, but they cleaned it up and replaced the black tape I had on the engraving and red dot! Now that's service.

Since then my M9 has worked perfectly. I haven't had any experience with dead pixels (touch wood), despite having taken the M9 to Japan last year.

 

[jaapv]

This is a malicious bashing post plain and simple. Leica will remap a sensor within a week without charge. And it is desinformation that other sensors do not have pixel loss.

This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.

Regardless, it's just not right for Leica to be producing and selling such a product at such a price without taking care of the problem itself. We need more camera and service for the money we spend.

Leica can't ride the wave of their past service and reliability forever. I'm eagerly awaiting to see what happens in a few days after the first M9 warranties are up and how the successive M9 users are treated when they have to pay for repairs.

Phil Forrest

 

[Phil_F_NM]

This is a malicious bashing post plain and simple. Leica will remap a sensor within a week without charge. And it is desinformation that other sensors do not have pixel loss.

Absolutely not! Have you had your Leica out for almost 3 months for this very error? I did. Almost all of them out here have been sent to Leica and have been away for well over a month.

I never said that other sensors do not have pixel problems. I don't use absolutes because there are always exceptions. What I'm saying is that the incident rate at which this problem affects the Leica digital cameras is unacceptable for their cost and lack of continued warranty support.

Perhaps it is different there in the Netherlands but here in the USA, Leica service is very slow. We aren't offered any warranty upgrades (aside from the M8u program.)

So again, I pose the question to you: could you please let the rest of us know how you get a Leica M8 or M9 stuck pixel fixed by Leica within a week? Further, could you let the rest of us know how you get extensions to your warranty? And how do you get service as a courtesy with an out of warranty M8or M9? You'd be helping out the whole Leica shooting community if you passed along this information.

Again, this is not a malicious thread at all, merely one that reiterates the truth about the reliability of some Leica cameras and the experiences that some of us have had with their service.

We all look forward to your reply!
Phil Forrest

 

[jaapv]

No i have not. My M9 came down with a motherboard problem once and Leica immediately offered me a loaner M9 as they could not return it in a week due to lack of a spare part. And no, I am not a professional. And I have two M8s since 2006 and an M 9 since 2009 and close knowledge of six other digital M cameras in my family and with friends and I have never seen a pixel problem on any of them. One of the M 8s developed a shutter fault out of warranty. Leica returned it in a week without charge.

 

[anthony_semone]

well, since I'm a pretty old fart who's looking to purchase an M9, who doesn't have an endless stream of buckeroos ($US), I can say that this thread, at least to me, is absolutely NOT malicious bashing. Instead, it is and has been enormously helpful!. I've been over to the Leica forum and there is a whole thread devoted to reliability issues. So...

If I'm gonna plunk down $7k of my hard earned retirement income - irrespective of whether or not I sell my Nikon gear - I have the right to expect the thing to work straight away, out of the box, without issues, and to do it for at least as long as my refurbished D700 I got from Adorama, almost two years now w/o a single glitch. What? I have to transfer my pics to my computer first to ensure I don't lose my data, and then I've got to reformat the SD card in the camera???

I think I'll just get an Oly E-P3 LOL

tony

 

[jaapv]

If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Your good experience with Leica service on your digital cameras is not necessarily the norm. Our local Leica dealer here in Philly has had to send 3 M9 bodies back within a month (mine will be the fourth) for pixel issues. Mine also has the shutter issue.
I found my first glaring hot pixel in my M9 only a few days after I purchased it new from a Leica dealer and upon returning it, I was not offered a loaner camera. In fact, Leica billed me for shipping, so we may be talking about two different companies. What I've seen here in the states with Leica service is that they are unbelievably slow. They have had my M8 for 2 full months this week and that is for a CLA plus rangefinder recalibration. And the charge? $630 USD + shipping. Hardly a week, hardly courtesy. I still don't have it back and do not know when it will arrive.

Phil Forrest

 

[anthony_semone]

Worthwhile???

Worthwhile???

If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.

Cut me a break, sir. I've got an obscene $worth of Nikon gear. Nary a glitch; nada, zip, zero. Contax G2; second owner, nada, zip, zero.

 

[literiter]

Cut me a break, sir. I've got an obscene $worth of Nikon gear. Nary a glitch; nada, zip, zero. Contax G2; second owner, nada, zip, zero.

What you have said is true and just a little scary.

I don't shoot digital except for a little Canon G11 to send things over the internet. But all my friends do and four of them are busy professional wedding photographers.

Non of them report significant problems with Nikon or Canon DSLRS.

Then I see these reports of mayhem with expensive Leica gear and it gives me pause; We know there has been problems with this stuff from the M8 to the latest iteration of the M9.

Why buy the stuff?

Is it the Leica name?

Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?

 

[Phil_F_NM]

If you use the magnifying glass of the Internet as your yardstick you'll never buy anything worthwhile, I fear.

How about for us who can't just afford to go out and *try* a Leica M9 with our hard earned dollars.

You know why I'm mad about this all? Because I intend to USE these cameras for part of my living. I'm not rich at all. Come from a family in which I'm the first to go to college but the most recent in a line of military that goes back to the US Civil War. I live almost hand-to-mouth off the stipend that I get from the GI Bill and a bit of disability that I earned when out in Iraq in 2004.

So, as a faithful user of Leica film cameras, I decided to bet on Leica and tightened my belt so I could use both of these fine photographic tools for a future in documentary which I'm well on my way towards. I'm pissed that Leica's working faithful users have to put up with their delays, bad service and finally un-reliable gear when it may mean the difference between us eating and going hungry. This is not the place to bash my choice of tool. I chose them because they suit my style of work the best and that's that.

The cost of the used M8 + new M9 were about 6 full months worth of my stipend and disability. But I stuck through it in order to use the gear that I wanted to use. I tightened my belt, ate a lot of beans and rice over the last 2 years and through that all I get sycophants saying Leica can do no wrong and naysayers saying that Leicas aren't worth anything as working tools. Both point to me making a "wrong" decision but it's one that is mine that fits perfectly with what I intend to do.

Phil Forrest

 

[anthony_semone]

literiter,

+1 sir, and Phil, +10

 

[Sonnar Brian]

This is what I found confusing because the Kodak DCS 14 ans SLRs never had an issue with pixels. And the Leicas use Kodak sensors as well but less than half the size of the medium format ones which should mean that the Leicas have fewer manufacturing defects than the larger models.
Phil Forrest

The Kodak DCS 14 and DCS SLR/N, and DCS SLR/C did not use Kodak CCD's. They used a CMOS sensor from a company bought out by Cypruss Semiconductor.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CYII4SM014K-EVAL-ND

and it looks like there is a Monochrome version of it. They used to sell for $6500 or so, for the Eval kit. Now you need to submit a request for a quote. All sensors will develop Hot Pixels. CMOS sensors have a lot of onboard processing, probably masks it out during the noise reduction phase of data acquisition.

Too funny, reading some of the threads in the Kodak DSLR forum at DPREVIEW,

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1026&thread=7373417

sounds like people complain about any brand that they buy. I remember the Nikon D1 and D2H Magenta Cast issue, and then the D2X color balance encryption uproar. Does anyone know if Nikon quit encrypting their files and hiding behind the Digital Millenium Copyright act to prevent other software makers from breaking the encryption? Nikon lost me as a customer when they pulled that nonsense.

 

[LCT]

...Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?

Those are the lenses in the first place. At the exception of some mechanic Ms, Leica bodies have never been more reliable than their competitors. But some photogs like Leica lenses so much that they/we use them manually on Japanese dSLRs and we accept the limitations of M8 or M9. Also the latters are the only digital rangefinders available, setting aside the discontinued R-D1.

 

[literiter]

Those are the lenses in the first place. At the exception of some mechanic Ms, Leica bodies have never been more reliable than their competitors. But some photogs like Leica lenses so much that they/we use them manually on Japanese dSLRs and we accept the limitations of M8 or M9. Also the latters are the only digital rangefinders available, setting aside the discontinued R-D1.

I have a M2 and a M4-P. They share a 35mm and 50mm Summicron which I use the most. The biggest advantage I have with these cameras would have to be no batteries, smallish and I have owned them for quite a few years.

The lenses are quite adequate and very small. Bonus! My Nikon F3 is a lot bigger and uses batteries.

Now for the most plebeian question; Why in heck can't I tell the difference between a picture taken with my ratty old Nikon and my Leica M2 both using 50mm lenses?

 

[thegman]

What you have said is true and just a little scary.

I don't shoot digital except for a little Canon G11 to send things over the internet. But all my friends do and four of them are busy professional wedding photographers.

Non of them report significant problems with Nikon or Canon DSLRS.

Then I see these reports of mayhem with expensive Leica gear and it gives me pause; We know there has been problems with this stuff from the M8 to the latest iteration of the M9.

Why buy the stuff?

Is it the Leica name?

Is the product, from a Leica M8 or M9, so obviously exquisite that it overshadows it's problems and it's competition?

I think when you buy into a niche product like Leica, you have to expect a slightly bumpy ride versus the well trodden path of Nikon, Canon etc. They don't have the budgets of the two giants for QA, R&D, or indeed nation/worldwide service centres.

We pay that price for the pleasure of use and ownership. I have a Lumix G1, it does not go wrong, ever, but it does not compare to the pleasure of using my Leica M3.

A Ferrari, Maserati, Noble, Caterham or Lamborghini will not have the reliability of a Toyota, Honda, Ford etc. but I know which I'd have, given the choice.

If I was a pro though, I wouldn't shoot Leica, not just because I would fear the reliability, but also because it's so expensive to get 1 or 2 more as backups.