emraphoto
Veteran
perhaps we could all just do each other a favor and stop the "XXX is dead and BBB won" business?
larmarv916
Well-known
Digital is the medium of the mass market...the goof proof platform for shoot it forget it...post it, and delete it. It is designed a consumer utility that has no long term value...beyond now. sure there you can save the files to a hard drive...a power surge or virus...the whole thing is now just a "toaster" in the scrap bin.
A shooter can put the same...effort into a creating a shot, no doubt. But in the end...the computer does everything. then you clean it up. If you do not like it just keep hitting the "do over" button...delete, delete. So how many swings do you get? Canon has gone into full blown proof of the concept that you as a consumer do not have any skills...now with the full shoot every frame per second concept...you just point and then later at home....review the 30 frame per second....then grab the 1 frame that "happened" during your Video clip.
Choose it and exclaim...wow did you see my great picture. Ok..what about the other 10,000 frames? This is the problem...the farther you go the less actual creative involvement you the shooter have. Sad but true.
just take a look at the new "nano pod" shoots full video edit and post to the web...save for single frame editing. Wow and you stood there and held the "nano" the whole time....creative genius! This is the direction the instant gratification mentality of consumerism has taken the world. Quality?? what is that...something that is old school....right. Oh that is what happens when you get a full frame sensor..and better firmware. Hello M9
As an artistic platform suffers again from these same problems...digital files must constantly be backed up but degrade from decay. Film has storage issues...fewer and more controllable but lasting original, that studies show can last an easy 350 years for BW film or glass plates
As an artform film is by nature a artistic process...and is an unchangeable original that is exactly like drawing in "black ink" on paper. What you did is what you get. If you got the exposure right, and then made the right decisions in the darkroom you end up with a work of art. If you print it right then you get another artistic work that has...in BW the ability to endure for hundreds of years..just like the negative.
Yes we have a digital camera a D200 that we use for creative experiments in color HDRI experiments and as a backup for BW film...so can shoot color..if needed. But in the end the artistic process is really what film is all about.
Digital is a utility experience with all the basic expertise of using a remote control for your TV's digital recorder...you selected the program and hit save!
Wow....wasn't that a memorable moment. But when you done you will delete it for another file. And just what is happening with TV...we went from "Tape" to "Cd's" to Blue Ray...wait 5 min and that will be replaced with flash memory sticks that have a self timed delete function.
Because of Photo Shop...the digital photo image is now reduced to being part of an "illustration" process. Grab a sky from some source cut and paste it to another image...then so on until your photo illustration is finished for now.
Your relationship with your film is just that you create it start to finish. It has one and only one original...how ever it comes out it is based on your creative vision to always be an original.
Like marble...once your done it is fixed forever. Digital makes you a passenger not the driver....of your own creative desire.
A shooter can put the same...effort into a creating a shot, no doubt. But in the end...the computer does everything. then you clean it up. If you do not like it just keep hitting the "do over" button...delete, delete. So how many swings do you get? Canon has gone into full blown proof of the concept that you as a consumer do not have any skills...now with the full shoot every frame per second concept...you just point and then later at home....review the 30 frame per second....then grab the 1 frame that "happened" during your Video clip.
Choose it and exclaim...wow did you see my great picture. Ok..what about the other 10,000 frames? This is the problem...the farther you go the less actual creative involvement you the shooter have. Sad but true.
just take a look at the new "nano pod" shoots full video edit and post to the web...save for single frame editing. Wow and you stood there and held the "nano" the whole time....creative genius! This is the direction the instant gratification mentality of consumerism has taken the world. Quality?? what is that...something that is old school....right. Oh that is what happens when you get a full frame sensor..and better firmware. Hello M9
As an artistic platform suffers again from these same problems...digital files must constantly be backed up but degrade from decay. Film has storage issues...fewer and more controllable but lasting original, that studies show can last an easy 350 years for BW film or glass plates
As an artform film is by nature a artistic process...and is an unchangeable original that is exactly like drawing in "black ink" on paper. What you did is what you get. If you got the exposure right, and then made the right decisions in the darkroom you end up with a work of art. If you print it right then you get another artistic work that has...in BW the ability to endure for hundreds of years..just like the negative.
Yes we have a digital camera a D200 that we use for creative experiments in color HDRI experiments and as a backup for BW film...so can shoot color..if needed. But in the end the artistic process is really what film is all about.
Digital is a utility experience with all the basic expertise of using a remote control for your TV's digital recorder...you selected the program and hit save!
Wow....wasn't that a memorable moment. But when you done you will delete it for another file. And just what is happening with TV...we went from "Tape" to "Cd's" to Blue Ray...wait 5 min and that will be replaced with flash memory sticks that have a self timed delete function.
Because of Photo Shop...the digital photo image is now reduced to being part of an "illustration" process. Grab a sky from some source cut and paste it to another image...then so on until your photo illustration is finished for now.
Your relationship with your film is just that you create it start to finish. It has one and only one original...how ever it comes out it is based on your creative vision to always be an original.
Like marble...once your done it is fixed forever. Digital makes you a passenger not the driver....of your own creative desire.
ferider
Veteran
So, could somebody who did the move answer Bill's questions, please ?
I'm still stuck with film (happily so) but very interested.
jjovin
Established
Well said.
I heard claims over a decade ago that Vinyl LS's are dead and CD's won. A decade later, the market for vinyl is still vibrant but small.
It appears now that mp3's are taking over CD's. Are they better?
In any case, people should use what they like and be happy with it without making these claims "XXX is dead and BBB won"!
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
larmary, isn't it the final print that matters? What possible difference could the process make to the observer of the print? He either likes it or doesn't.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
joe: how's the bag arranging going? i'm about to do so myself and head out.
i disagree that emotions can be dangerous; rather it is the attachment to emotions that is dangerous. as you stated, lots of folks seem to need to be right, even if "proving" others wrong is the only way they can seem to do so. in this thread i see it on both sides, but really, the most virulent seems to be the "film is dead" side. when a film shooter talks about their preference for the look of film or the process, the "digital side" responds with economic arguments such as Kodak or Fuji wishing, or some such irrelevant argument.
and the pro-digital folks also reveal that they either weren't very good or interested in the darkroom. so digital is good for them, but why try to extend that to those who obviously are comfortable and accomplished in the darkroom?
anyway, this kind of sniping by a few folks here is one factor why i'm going to withdraw for what will likely be an extended period. I have s few projects requiring actually making photos, so i'll just leave the sandbox to others.
written sans caps in honour of two of my favourite blokes here.
earl
i disagree that emotions can be dangerous; rather it is the attachment to emotions that is dangerous. as you stated, lots of folks seem to need to be right, even if "proving" others wrong is the only way they can seem to do so. in this thread i see it on both sides, but really, the most virulent seems to be the "film is dead" side. when a film shooter talks about their preference for the look of film or the process, the "digital side" responds with economic arguments such as Kodak or Fuji wishing, or some such irrelevant argument.
and the pro-digital folks also reveal that they either weren't very good or interested in the darkroom. so digital is good for them, but why try to extend that to those who obviously are comfortable and accomplished in the darkroom?
anyway, this kind of sniping by a few folks here is one factor why i'm going to withdraw for what will likely be an extended period. I have s few projects requiring actually making photos, so i'll just leave the sandbox to others.
written sans caps in honour of two of my favourite blokes here.
earl
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Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
As you were quick to point out to me yesterday - there is offering an opinion, and............ touche!
Mcary
Well-known
Everyone knows that using digital makes one a soulless unthinking drone. Forever cursed to mindlessly shoot thousands and thousands of frames of useless uninspiring crap, And only by accepting film as the only true photography can one be saved.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Maybe silver needs a firmware upgrade.
That reminds me: I should buy some silver. Once the major chip manufacturers get involved in some nastiness, computer equipment prices will skyrocket (anybody remember the Taiwan earthquake about 10 years ago?).
That's why it's good to diversify, and not get pigeon-holed into a particular football or baseball team that people will defend to the bitter fist-fighting end.
That reminds me: I should buy some silver. Once the major chip manufacturers get involved in some nastiness, computer equipment prices will skyrocket (anybody remember the Taiwan earthquake about 10 years ago?).
That's why it's good to diversify, and not get pigeon-holed into a particular football or baseball team that people will defend to the bitter fist-fighting end.
FrankS
Registered User
Film: Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.
Digital has no soul: This is figurative language, we've been over this. It's just an expression that means that the process of working with film is more (emotionally) engaging than digital workflow, for some folks. Clearly, it is not a suggestion that the digital photographer has no soul. Sheesh!
It seems that ones perception of which "side" of the film vs digital argument is being offensive, depends on which "side" of the argument, and to what degree, you are on. Fanatics take the greatest exception to opposition of their views.
Digital has no soul: This is figurative language, we've been over this. It's just an expression that means that the process of working with film is more (emotionally) engaging than digital workflow, for some folks. Clearly, it is not a suggestion that the digital photographer has no soul. Sheesh!
It seems that ones perception of which "side" of the film vs digital argument is being offensive, depends on which "side" of the argument, and to what degree, you are on. Fanatics take the greatest exception to opposition of their views.
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back alley
IMAGES
the digital jihad starts here and now...
Fujitsu
Well-known
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Funny thing is, Silver is hard and cold, and Silicon is warm and...Earth-friendly.
Soul is as Soul does. Huh! Ah feel good...
Soul is as Soul does. Huh! Ah feel good...
back alley
IMAGES
There´s much more soul in my analog photographs than in any digital capture (and this holds true for most stuff I see on flickr).
pesphoto
Veteran
i just came back from shooting my f3hp and TriX, heading to darkroom now.
Each to his own
Each to his own
FrankS
Registered User
Joe, you've experienced an epiphany? Seen the light? A sudden conversion? I'm confused.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I wonder if the Daguerreotype fellas claimed that Mercury had more soul than Silver...
FrankS
Registered User
Figurative language Gabriel. (sigh)
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MCTuomey
Veteran
i just dropped back in ... and we're farther from Bill's question than I would have thought.
As I posted earlier, my experience moving from film to digital for part-time sports and event photography was very favorable. Best part was the economy and reduced processing time. Hands down. Still, I shoot B&W film because I like the look and also because I do enjoy using certain film gear. Pretty simple, but then I'm a simple guy.
I couldn't give a farthing for the debate film v digital. I really don't think too well so I don't think too much, especially about endless discussions that don't help me improve. I use what works for me, that's all.
Frank: Joe didn't say that. *fujitsu* did and it somehow got misquoted. Joe's been pleading for moderation, as we've come to expect
As I posted earlier, my experience moving from film to digital for part-time sports and event photography was very favorable. Best part was the economy and reduced processing time. Hands down. Still, I shoot B&W film because I like the look and also because I do enjoy using certain film gear. Pretty simple, but then I'm a simple guy.
I couldn't give a farthing for the debate film v digital. I really don't think too well so I don't think too much, especially about endless discussions that don't help me improve. I use what works for me, that's all.
Frank: Joe didn't say that. *fujitsu* did and it somehow got misquoted. Joe's been pleading for moderation, as we've come to expect
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