slightly OT: MF SLRs - Best Bang for Buck?

[P C Headland]

I'll put in a good word for the Pentacon 6TL too. While there are other cameras around that are similar in purchase price with a standard lens, the big advantage comes when you want to add other lenses and accessories (tubes, bellows, finders, etc.). There are a huge range of lenses too, German (both "sides") and Russian. It's quite nice to use, and not so heavy that you can't carry it around all day. Takes 120 and 220 film.

Any camera of this age, whether East German, Japanese or West German will benefit from a CLA. Should then be good for another 20 years or more.

As for film advance "issues", if you take care to follow the correct loading procedure, you should have no problems. If you are still concerned, you can have a film advance indicator fitted, so you have a visual indication that you have advanced the film enough.

I had a CLA on mine, and had a microprism focus screen fitted and the film advance indicator (even though I had no prior problems). They are fairly easy to work on, so a full serivce isn't that expensive.

Other good/cheap 6x6 SLR options would be the Bronica S2A or newer Bronica SQ-A/B.

 

[Pherdinand]

I picked up a Kowa Six system - body incl fixed 120/220 back and two lenses, 85/2.8 + 55/3.5. Also an L-shaped handle. For 200 euro, it is a good bang for the buck, if not the best. I was mostly interested in the 55mm lens, which is supposed to be very good. Still have to replace the light seal foam and then, will give him a try.

 

[jonasv]

Just curious, did you have any issues with the film advance on yours -- how about its overall quality ? Does the metered prism work ?

I bought mine from RFF'er Mike Kovac and since he assured me it worked perfectly, I didn't have to fear quality control issues. If I am not mistaken, he got it previously of Ebay'er "cupog" - a seller specialised in this kind of cameras, who checks and if necessary overhauls the cameras before selling them. The only problem on mine is the exposure counter not working - appearantly a very common problem.

The film advance problem on the other hand is in 9 out of 10 cases a non-issue: the original Pentacon 6 manuals had a bad translation with incorrect issues: not the camera but the manual and the film loading are at fault. I load my camera with care and I've never once had a problem (overlapping frames or anything like that). Overall quality, I would say very good, except the previously mentioned exposure counter. It feels reliable. It's a simple design and not much can go wrong I think.

I have the metered prism and it works perfectly. I use the WLF the most though, it just suits me better - but the prism and meter work fine. Easy to focus with the pop-up magnifier on the WLF and the bright split-image screen.

What surprised me most was the mirror: it's extremely well dampened. Barely any vibrations (as I said, I get sharp results at 1/15th) and not all that loud. The sound isn't annoying at all, contrary to the Bronicas etc which make a load "CLACK!"-sound, the Pentacon 6 TL makes a lot more pleasing "FLOP"-sound.

I am considering selling mine because I only use the 80mm lens, and one of the biggest strengths of the Pentacon 6 system is the range of superb lenses. If I'm not using them I might just as well settle for a TLR. Although I'll have to see results from my TLR (a Diacord L, in the mail towards me) first, because I don't know if it can come close to the gorgeous quality of that Biometar 80 on the Pentacon.

 

[dll927]

There's a company in Atlanta that imports the Kiev 88 (Hassie copy) and, although they are new, they fix them up to be more reliable this side of the great divide. Has anybody tried them, and anybody have experience with their Kievs? Obviously, they are a little more costly than ones bought in the FSU, but the extra cost is probably worth the difference.

 

[ChrisPlatt]

A caveat - Been there, done that...

A caveat - Been there, done that...

"Bang" is right! An excellent choice of terms.
Some are worse than others, but big loud beasts, all.
In this respect, the antithesis of the stealthy 35mm rangefinder.

I bought a 645 SLR but soon sold it - it was way too noisy.
I now have a 645 rangefinder camera instead.
Ahhh. That's better... 🙂

"Excelsior, you fathead!"
-Chris-

 

[stephen_lumsden]

Brett

I was thinking along the same lines myself. I have a rolleiflex-T and a Yashica Mat 124G at the moment and was thinking about getting some rolleinars to be able to focus closer. For extra flexibility I was thinking about getting A Mamiya 220/330 TLR. They have belows which allow close focusing btw,or else (shock horror) I may get a Sony-R1 which has waist level viewing.
LEt us know how you get on as I am trying weigh us the pos and cons of getting more MF gear myself now vs branching out to digital. The results so far in MF seem vastly superior to 35mm, even to the extent that I am thinking about ditching my Kiev and CAnonet, and may stick with RF thru getting an Iskra.

regards

Stephen

 

[Trius]

Someone mentioned the Rollei 6003 but ... how abount the SL66? Mechanical (no battery dependence), Rollei/Zeiss optics with built-in bellows, tilting lens stage, built-in reversing lens mounts for macro and built in the traditional Rollei over-engineered manner. I haven't tracked current prices, but they should be reasonable ... cheaper than Hasselblad, more than Kowa, I suspect.

 

[tedwhite]

I've had two Kowa 6's. They look like Hasselblads, have wonderful 80mm lenses, and cost about a fourth of what you'd pay for a hassy. Presently I'm using a Rolleiflex as I quite like the all-but-silent shutter release.

Ted

(PS: I'm not sure why, but I've never found the 6X6 format to be a problem. I learned to imagine a rectangular format as I composed (portrait or landscape). Sometimes, depending on intent, I printed the full negative (11X11, 16X16, 20X20).

There is also the ARAX, made in Kiev. Worth a google.

Ted

 

[Heath]

I have a Kiev 88 TTL and a Kiev 80. I have only used the 88 and have had no problems with the camera, except film spacing due to operator error. The metered prism works wonderfully and the lens is quite sharp. My 80 is in need of a new skin and a slide for the back, but it is in great condition other than that. I am going to use it for studio portrait work.

This was taken with my 88 TTL and shows the quality of the lens and that the meter works very well. Black car and truck, overcast day in shadow and early afternoon.

Heath

 

[Ariya]

I found a lot of good advice on photo.net, the medium format group/digest. Lots of posts to read, some good info.

I started leaning towards a Fuji 680 because of the rise/fall shift/tilt capapbilities, but they are still expensive. I worked my way towards a RB67, cheaper and seems to have a good history, plus still in production (or at least for sale new according to the Mamiya website).

Still haven't pulled the trigger, I'm going to need a scanner sonce I have a Minolta Scan Dual IV now.

Camera, wide lens, telephoto lens, some backs, a scanner, all add up fast!

I have the Fuji GX680II and it is a great camera. The fuji lenses are great, the bellows focusing is wonderful - particularly because you said that you want to do close focusing, with the AA battery holder I can get power at any convenience store, the front standards have rise/fall, tilt, shift and swing movements, rotating back, (can you tell I like this camera?). I have found it to be very easy to operate and I never feel like I'm fighting the camera (like I did with the Hasselblad - YMMV). I have used the Bronica slrs and I have to say that they are great cameras that are a lot of fun to use - with great results. If close focusing is a primary concern, I would look at the Fuji. If the Fuji doesn't fit your budget (it does cost more to get those fun movements), I would go Mamiya RB/RZ. Once you use a bellows focusing camera, you'll never go back.

Peter

 

[kmack]

I am very surprised that no one has mentioned the Contax 645. Lots of used ones on the market and (I may be mistaken) still in production.

Still, you may want to consider something even larger, Say a Crown Graphic and add a 23 roll film holder. That way you could choose big or Bigger negative wise.

Just a thought.

 

[Kim Coxon]

If you want to get a good one from the Ukraine, you might want to look at Arax http://araxfoto.com/ They do a similar thing and take the basic cameras and rework then to a higher standard at a very reasonable cost.

Kim

There's a company in Atlanta that imports the Kiev 88 (Hassie copy) and, although they are new, they fix them up to be more reliable this side of the great divide. Has anybody tried them, and anybody have experience with their Kievs? Obviously, they are a little more costly than ones bought in the FSU, but the extra cost is probably worth the difference.

 

[wlewisiii]

Still, you may want to consider something even larger, Say a Crown Graphic and add a 23 roll film holder. That way you could choose big or Bigger negative wise.

This is what I decided to do since I already have a Speed Graphic. I've got a Graflex 22 (6x6) roll film holder coming for pennies. That format will turn my 127/4.7 from a 35mm equivalent to a 85mm equivalent... 😱 I'm thinking it'll be fun to give it a try.

William

 

[RJBender]

Someone mentioned the Rollei 6003 but ... how abount the SL66? Mechanical (no battery dependence), Rollei/Zeiss optics with built-in bellows, tilting lens stage, built-in reversing lens mounts for macro and built in the traditional Rollei over-engineered manner. I haven't tracked current prices, but they should be reasonable ... cheaper than Hasselblad, more than Kowa, I suspect.

Earl, the SL66s that I've seen were always priced higher that 'blads. The SL66's focal plane shutter syncs at 1/30th or slower... same as the Pentax 6x7.

I'd go with a leaf shutter.

R.J.

 

[rbiemer]

When I decided to get myself a medium format SLR, I went through all the choices and ultimately picked the Arax/Kiev 60. My reasoning was: As much as I wanted a Hassleblad(at the time good 500 series bodies were running ~300 to 500 USD), the lenses were still very pricey. So the choice in good and inexpensive lenses in P-6 mount from the Ukraine swayed me. And the K88/hassleblad clone cameras seemed to be more complicated and have more QC issues. Kiev60 hotrodded by Arax answered my needs. I don't have interchangeable backs and I am "stuck" with 120 film instead of being able to use both 120 and 220. Neither is a problem for me.
The Arax is certainly not the best MF camera out there but, I think, for the lenses, the FSU stuff is hard to beat. I paid around $300US for my 30mm Arsat P-6 mount lens. Anyone priced the closest Hassy equivalent lately? For me(a hobby shooter) the price/value ratio made more sense to buy the FSU gear.
If I were making money with my cameras I would certainly have made a different choice. But I'm not so the Arax works well for me.
And you can get mount adaptors to use the FSU glass on most medium format cameras.
Rob

 

[JoeFriday]

I've been seeing Hassy 500CM systems, usually with 80mm lens, WLF and A12 back for about $800 on average.. I'm not convinced this is the best setup for me, but it seems like a bargain for what you'd get

 

[x-ray]

Pentax 67 is the "best bang for the buck," right now. Hands down..Cheap, ample supply, still repair support, cheap lenses with great results

Dan

Pentax Lens Info Page

http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/p67ss.htm

I fully agree that the 6x7 pentax is a fantastic camera mechanically and optically. I primarily used Rollei SL66's for twenty five years but i also had three 6x7 bodies and lenses from 35mm to 300. They are large and heavy but the mechanics are very strong and operatrion is like a 35mm slr. The TTL prism is spot on and the glass is up there with Zeiss. Pentax 6x7 glass has been used for Imax cameras as well as Zeiss. I used them mainly for aerial work but some for general photography. In all the rolls I put through them I nver had one issue. The only person that i know of that had any problems was with one of the first and the problem was with one roller that was later redesigned. Every lens that I had was excellent in sharpness, contrast and construction. I particularly loved the old 55 f3.5 and the 135 macro.

A few years ago i read an article about the guy shooting Victoria Secrets work. He shot exclusively with 6x7 Pentaxes.

I had three SL66 bodies and a waggon full of lenses from 30mm to 250. I loved these camerasd but after tens of thousands of rolls and twenty five years of hard grinding work they finally had some problems. After they were discontinued they became harder to get repaired. One was in the shop for a year. If you can find a clean used one that was used very little it's the best slr 6x6 ever made, in my opinion. The only negative was the 1/30th flash sync but that was never an issue for me because i almost always shot under controlled conditions like a studio. The 1/30 is the same for the Pentax 6x7.

I purchased a friends Hasselblad 500cm and SWC/m when he retired. I used Hassy many years ago but hadn't in over twenty years. It's a strange beast compared to the SL66 but they make great pictures. It's true they are a little delicate and require repairs more than either the SL66 or Pentax. I replaced the light traps in the backs myself for about five bucks each and then had the 500cm body cleaned by my trusted friend Jimmy Koh (he dio all my SL66 work). The cost was around $150 and I now need to do the sdame with the SWC/M which will be a little higher. I had the shutter inmy 150 self distruct and destroy the blades. I was in Atlanta so I took it to KEH repairs andthe total with blade replacement and CLA was about $275. At some point I need to have two other lenses cleaned and three backs. I was head of a motion picture and photo department in a fair size ad agency and made the blunder of selling our 500cm bodies and going to the focal plane bodies in Hasselblad and all ne CF lenses. Withion a year every piece had been back in the shop. Never again would i buy a FP Hassy and would rather have the older black T* lenses. It's my understanding that parts for the non T* lrnses and 500c bodies are hard to find and might warrent staying away from.

Good luck, you'll love MF.

 

[RJBender]

I've been seeing Hassy 500CM systems, usually with 80mm lens, WLF and A12 back for about $800 on average.. I'm not convinced this is the best setup for me, but it seems like a bargain for what you'd get

Ive seen similar outfits priced at $600 in the St. Louis area.
There's a good article on flash sync speed HERE

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

I fully agree that the 6x7 pentax is a fantastic camera mechanically and optically. I primarily used Rollei SL66's for twenty five years but i also had three 6x7 bodies and lenses from 35mm to 300. They are large and heavy but the mechanics are very strong and operatrion is like a 35mm slr. The TTL prism is spot on and the glass is up there with Zeiss. Pentax 6x7 glass has been used for Imax cameras as well as Zeiss. I used them mainly for aerial work but some for general photography. In all the rolls I put through them I nver had one issue. The only person that i know of that had any problems was with one of the first and the problem was with one roller that was later redesigned. Every lens that I had was excellent in sharpness, contrast and construction. I particularly loved the old 55 f3.5 and the 135 macro.

A few years ago i read an article about the guy shooting Victoria Secrets work. He shot exclusively with 6x7 Pentaxes.

I had three SL66 bodies and a waggon full of lenses from 30mm to 250. I loved these camerasd but after tens of thousands of rolls and twenty five years of hard grinding work they finally had some problems. After they were discontinued they became harder to get repaired. One was in the shop for a year. If you can find a clean used one that was used very little it's the best slr 6x6 ever made, in my opinion. The only negative was the 1/30th flash sync but that was never an issue for me because i almost always shot under controlled conditions like a studio. The 1/30 is the same for the Pentax 6x7.

I purchased a friends Hasselblad 500cm and SWC/m when he retired. I used Hassy many years ago but hadn't in over twenty years. It's a strange beast compared to the SL66 but they make great pictures. It's true they are a little delicate and require repairs more than either the SL66 or Pentax. I replaced the light traps in the backs myself for about five bucks each and then had the 500cm body cleaned by my trusted friend Jimmy Koh (he dio all my SL66 work). The cost was around $150 and I now need to do the sdame with the SWC/M which will be a little higher. I had the shutter inmy 150 self distruct and destroy the blades. I was in Atlanta so I took it to KEH repairs andthe total with blade replacement and CLA was about $275. At some point I need to have two other lenses cleaned and three backs. I was head of a motion picture and photo department in a fair size ad agency and made the blunder of selling our 500cm bodies and going to the focal plane bodies in Hasselblad and all ne CF lenses. Withion a year every piece had been back in the shop. Never again would i buy a FP Hassy and would rather have the older black T* lenses. It's my understanding that parts for the non T* lrnses and 500c bodies are hard to find and might warrent staying away from.

Good luck, you'll love MF.

Ray,

Did Marflex have one of your SL66s for a year? AFAIK, Marflex is the only authorized Rollei repair center in the USA. Whoever did the work, 12 months is really bad time service IMO.

R.J.

 

[x-ray]

Someone mentioned the Rollei 6003 but ... how abount the SL66? Mechanical (no battery dependence), Rollei/Zeiss optics with built-in bellows, tilting lens stage, built-in reversing lens mounts for macro and built in the traditional Rollei over-engineered manner. I haven't tracked current prices, but they should be reasonable ... cheaper than Hasselblad, more than Kowa, I suspect.

Rollei SL66's, in my opinion, are the most advanced and best built MF cameras ever made. As you stated the lenses from 50mm to 150 reverse with out any adapters. The backs take 120 and 220 and the mirror is instant return. The mirror is oversize so there is no cutoff when using long glass, 150 and above. The tilt front is the berries. I used my tilt all the time. The prism rotates and you only have one shutter to deal with. The mirror locks up and vibration is very low even with the mirror functioning. Work horse is the word. I can only guess but I would estimate 25K rolls through each body before any problems. I bout two bodies used and one from a friend that had only shot two rolls through it. Unfortunately many have been used hard but there are some that are basically new. The down side is the newer ones are high. For a newer one expect to pay $1,200 or so with a back and 80 planar.

You could get lenses all the way up to a mirrortar Zeiss for $45,000.

My 120 was a East German Zeiss Opton. The Zeiss name was not on it but it was made in the East plant but by law they could not put the Zeiss name on it. I have seen a 150, 250 and 40 under the Opton name too.

Check the Rollei Club of America for new to like new warranted machines.

KOH had one for a year but Marflex had one of my 3003 bodies for a year too. I had so many problems with Marflex and my 3003 system that I swore to never send anything to them again. KOH Camera has done an excellent job and I've never had an issue even with a year repair.The camera that took a year had a major problem that basically required total disassembly of the camera. Thisis one major complex machine and they could not figure why the body had locked up. Fortunately they finally fixed it.