Fair enough.
I'm sorry you feel it is ridiculous, but it is how I feel about the M9 and the supposedly upcoming M10. I'm not alone in wishing the M9 had modern ISO capabilities. That's not saying it is not a great camera. It's just not the best one for me right now. A M10 could be the answer, but I'm no longer willing to pay Leica digital M prices. I'm not one to get attached to inanimate objects for a lifetime. I use them, sell them, and move on. Not sure I think that is ridiculous. We all can't act and think alike. It would be boring.
hteasley
Pupil
I can easily believe that. I think it's an uncommon person who wants to shoot RFs. I think a lot of people hear about the legend of Leica, and assume that their favorite common camera features will be there.
Obnoxious, pretentious marketspeak, to be sure. But to be fair, the "buying experience" is referring to the store, not the camera. I'm sure they do make it ever so much nicer and more opulent, buying a camera there, than buying it at a regular old camera store.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
A few people have thrown the current value of the RD-1 into the mix which is interesting because I think it holds a completely different place to the Leica M 8/9 in the used market.
The used value of a good clean RD-1 is not a lot less than it was five years ago and it seem so be holding steady over the last three years in particular. Manual shutter cocking, quirky design and a six megapixel 1.5 crop sensor ... who would have thought?
The Epson in reality is far more more of a cult camera than the M9 can ever hope to be! The Leica changed dramatically from the M8 to the M9 (full frame) and subsequent incarnations will change in the same way. The RD-1 has it's place firmly cemented in history and in our minds because of what it is ... the world's first digital rangefinder. Everything else is a copy!
The used value of a good clean RD-1 is not a lot less than it was five years ago and it seem so be holding steady over the last three years in particular. Manual shutter cocking, quirky design and a six megapixel 1.5 crop sensor ... who would have thought?
The Epson in reality is far more more of a cult camera than the M9 can ever hope to be! The Leica changed dramatically from the M8 to the M9 (full frame) and subsequent incarnations will change in the same way. The RD-1 has it's place firmly cemented in history and in our minds because of what it is ... the world's first digital rangefinder. Everything else is a copy!
fireblade
Vincenzo.
“Leica Camera offers photographers unparalleled creative freedom and inspiration by producing products of outstanding quality and craftsmanship. Leica Boutiques celebrate these core values and create an incomparable buying experience for our customers"...........i wonder how long he took to memorize those beautiful english words all strung together like a symphony
kingqueenknave
Well-known
I seriously doubt the M9 hopes for much of anything.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
That's not what is ridiculous. I do the same thing. But to go further in trying to explain my query also seems ridiculous.
G
Frontman
Well-known
It's probably nothing more than people simply becoming bored with their toys. With so many cameras being marketed and hyped, it's easy to arouse interest in something else, and for the price of a one M9 you can get several of something else.
I used to do a lot of research before buying a new car. I would read magazine reports, Internet reviews, and take test drives at the dealerships. I would then choose a car, and buy it. But after a year or so, I would become bored with it, and begin to look for something else. If I waited too long, the resale/trade-in value would fall too far.
If you think buying an M9 is expensive, don't get into the habit of buying a new car every year.
I used to do a lot of research before buying a new car. I would read magazine reports, Internet reviews, and take test drives at the dealerships. I would then choose a car, and buy it. But after a year or so, I would become bored with it, and begin to look for something else. If I waited too long, the resale/trade-in value would fall too far.
If you think buying an M9 is expensive, don't get into the habit of buying a new car every year.
jarski
Veteran
btw. why Nikon D600 thread got deleted
rumors about it get stronger every day. it would not be rangefinder ofcourse, but second full frame camera (after M9) with smaller/lighter body than currently available D700/D800/5D's.
interesting times
rumors about it get stronger every day. it would not be rangefinder ofcourse, but second full frame camera (after M9) with smaller/lighter body than currently available D700/D800/5D's.
interesting times
BobYIL
Well-known
^ It's almost out.. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.xitek.com%2Fthread-1022917-1-1-2.html
I think it will be the new "definition" of the Full-Frame with not much pro-features but 24MP, HD and ISO6400 for $1600.
It's this $1600 to set the base-standard for the oncoming full-frame digitals.. If the D800 series is to be produced 30.000 units a month, imagine how much this one would be.
(Probably it's time to start dreaming about FF-mirrorless for the masses..)
I think it will be the new "definition" of the Full-Frame with not much pro-features but 24MP, HD and ISO6400 for $1600.
It's this $1600 to set the base-standard for the oncoming full-frame digitals.. If the D800 series is to be produced 30.000 units a month, imagine how much this one would be.
(Probably it's time to start dreaming about FF-mirrorless for the masses..)
Borge H
Established
I agree with this to some extent. I have a M9 with a several lenses (21, 28, 35, 50, 90, 135, 200 with Visoflex and also a M2, a M4-P and a M6).
I think the prices are absurd for the new Leica lenses and the M M. If a M 10 comes this autumn (October 10th, at the time 10,10?) I guess the price will be much higher than the price for M 9. Higher than M M. What was the increase in price from M 8 to M 9 , 30%?
M 9 is a good camera. I will not sell mine. But the performance is not that extreme. The screen is very easily scratched, the high ISO performance is not impressive, the white balance is not optimal and the building quality has some questions (broken sensors, card reading issues etc.). I have the same experience with new Leica lenses (50 Summicron and 28 mm Elmarit), they are not as solid as the old lenses. The adjustable sun shade and filter mount can easily be moved around on the Summicron, it is not rigid fastened.
I guess the Leica company uses its old and well deserved name to sell new products for the luxury market. A market where people buy the cameras to show off, not to use them. It reminds me of car companys like Lamborghini or Porsche.
You don´t buy these cars to drive every day to work or go shopping with your family.
Which digital rangefinder is better to use on a daily basis than a M 9 or a M10? The next Fujifilm Pro version?
Well, none really. There are no other current digital RF cameras on the market (unless you count the last Epson).
I do enjoy using the Fuji X-Pro1 more than the M9, but they are different types of cameras.
icebear
Veteran
Two tips:
1.Giotto screen protection (Schott glass <1mm thick, around 25-30 $).
2. Expodisc for manual wide balance, get one that is slightly larger in diameter than the filter size of your largest lens and do manual white balance. Absolutely accurate colors
If you don't want to go that route just select an appropriate setting. I did not use AWB so far but I heard some comments about it not being accurate.
kmallick
Well-known
hteasley
Pupil
I'm just talking about the "awesome" low-light performance, not about "awesome" aesthetic decisions.
N.delaRua
Well-known
I think digital convergence is well underway, and it appears that MFT, APC-C, and FF are converging in terms of IQ and noise performance.
At this very moment in time, one stil has relatively few options in terms of 35 mm digital sensor cameras, but that really seems like it is about to change.
The price of the D800 and the rumored D600 seem intent and bringing full frame sensors to the masses. As well as Cannon's next move... Who knows maybe Sony will jump into the mix as well.
I think the M9 monochrom in innovative in this respect because it does differentiate itself in an objective manner: its the only one of its kind.
However, other than operation and user experience it seems to me that digital sensors are converging quite quickly.
How does this affect Leica prices? At the moment not by much.... I don't know if its sustainable, but Leica devotees sure are avid. Maybe the market is upheld by people like me who want a full frame Leica but the prices has not come down enough. There are plenty of people above me with greater means, so I think the will maintain the bottom price of the market for some time...
It was not that long ago that a D3X was like or still is $8000... now you can get a D800 with more resolution for half the price!?!?!
I hope the market destorys the value of the M9 so I can get one
At this very moment in time, one stil has relatively few options in terms of 35 mm digital sensor cameras, but that really seems like it is about to change.
The price of the D800 and the rumored D600 seem intent and bringing full frame sensors to the masses. As well as Cannon's next move... Who knows maybe Sony will jump into the mix as well.
I think the M9 monochrom in innovative in this respect because it does differentiate itself in an objective manner: its the only one of its kind.
However, other than operation and user experience it seems to me that digital sensors are converging quite quickly.
How does this affect Leica prices? At the moment not by much.... I don't know if its sustainable, but Leica devotees sure are avid. Maybe the market is upheld by people like me who want a full frame Leica but the prices has not come down enough. There are plenty of people above me with greater means, so I think the will maintain the bottom price of the market for some time...
It was not that long ago that a D3X was like or still is $8000... now you can get a D800 with more resolution for half the price!?!?!
I hope the market destorys the value of the M9 so I can get one
bob338
Well-known
The Epson has a following because it's the cheapest digital rangefinder on the market. Its 'cult' following is due to it being a rangefinder that can accept M lenses.
I used one a few years ago and was unimpressed. I'll take an M8 or M9 any day...
BobYIL
Well-known
Many dreamt and got that in M9. except the 'masses' part.
The "many" here is subject to question... However the "masses" are usually the common sense; the better indicator for the optimum "quality/price" or "performance/price" balance. They are after results, and the results -what they see on the screen or print- get the money of the masses.
Same as the insightful minority; i.e. the pro photographers: They pay for the best to "extract" the results that are otherwise not possible.. Today they do not pay a single dollar for something based on myth or for traditional obsession of for something to not reveal its superiority on the final file/print to be delivered to customer or just because "so and so also bought it". They are after results, and the results get the money of the professionals so that the results would bring them money.
Before, the analog Leica was able to find its way into the hands of professionals to set a model for us amateurs too.. Digital Leica however, from the beginning on could not impress the professionals and stayed way below on the performance/price scala.. The M9 was a sudden hit to satisfy the dreams of many Leica aficionado waiting for an FF sensor since long, to use the existing lenses in hand.. Now the same Leica users are concerning about the rest of the story.. especially with the prices Leica seeming to dictate for the very future too.. Will they upgrade to the new M10 or stick to the M9 at hand?.. (And they are observing also how the prices are going down with each forward step in digital technology.)
Bear in mind, the majority of the lenses introduced in the last months, no matter of what brand, even for less than $600 began to come out with aspherical elements..
The question in 2012 is: Will the Leica users keep on subsidizing an inefficient production drown in unjustifiable overhead in the coming years too? I think the title of this thread is pointing rather to this fact.. This is the digital world; you may still say "I can pay $500 for the Pentium 4" while the Core-i7 was selling for less than $300 if you do not mind the raised eyebrows..
Lss
Well-known
I continue to use both the R-D1 and M8. For most practical purposes, I actually find the differences between these cameras fairly small.
leicapixie
Well-known
The glut of M9 on sale is for many reasons. One the "threat" of a new Model, the M-10. The lack of features compared to the DSLRs of N,C,P and S.Finding out that it needs skill and an Eye for good photographs, not hot banksters money.
i am a retired photojournalist. The Leica M was ONE of my many tools. i used Pentax and Nikon.Which was better.?. They were all the same. Depended on my needs.
Leica M were purchased often then as now as a status object. The owners were more concerned with specifications than actual usage.
Into a cupboard and left there after the excitement wore off..
My Leica M3 has had about 8000 rolls thru it. No actual number, a wild guess. In usage since 1967. many services. Recently i thought about selling..
The fact though although the price is higher than any other film camera, all i could replace it with was a plastic, obsolete box, as soon as my card was whooshed ,thru the pay corner. i won't do that.
i rather never sell. i still have my original Nikon-F and lenses, my very much more used Pentax system, and now a whole slew of film SLR some for free or costs as low as $10. Spotmatic, Pentax KM (film), Fuji, Canon Ae-1p and Av-1.
Digital for me is my point and shoots.. i love using film. i have never shot thousands of images at any function or event. i am too lazy to do all the editing.
i guess the more M9 out there, the more on offer, for resale.
Leica are special. The Fuji is not a Leica. You either have a Leica or you don't. Close, like. don't make it.
If you have a M9 or an M8 keep using it!
i am a retired photojournalist. The Leica M was ONE of my many tools. i used Pentax and Nikon.Which was better.?. They were all the same. Depended on my needs.
Leica M were purchased often then as now as a status object. The owners were more concerned with specifications than actual usage.
Into a cupboard and left there after the excitement wore off..
My Leica M3 has had about 8000 rolls thru it. No actual number, a wild guess. In usage since 1967. many services. Recently i thought about selling..
The fact though although the price is higher than any other film camera, all i could replace it with was a plastic, obsolete box, as soon as my card was whooshed ,thru the pay corner. i won't do that.
i rather never sell. i still have my original Nikon-F and lenses, my very much more used Pentax system, and now a whole slew of film SLR some for free or costs as low as $10. Spotmatic, Pentax KM (film), Fuji, Canon Ae-1p and Av-1.
Digital for me is my point and shoots.. i love using film. i have never shot thousands of images at any function or event. i am too lazy to do all the editing.
i guess the more M9 out there, the more on offer, for resale.
Leica are special. The Fuji is not a Leica. You either have a Leica or you don't. Close, like. don't make it.
If you have a M9 or an M8 keep using it!
umcelinho
Marcelo
I think saying something has a cult means it's a not very rational thing, which I somewhat agree.
I think It's more about how it feels than which are its features, and there isn't any other digital that feels so much like a film camera, in both its advantages and disadvantages. Of course it's the cheapest digital RF around, but the price gap between an R-D1 and an M8 is not too wide, $1300 vs $2000 more or less (of course that is relative too).
I think It's more about how it feels than which are its features, and there isn't any other digital that feels so much like a film camera, in both its advantages and disadvantages. Of course it's the cheapest digital RF around, but the price gap between an R-D1 and an M8 is not too wide, $1300 vs $2000 more or less (of course that is relative too).