J. Borger
Well-known
Yes .... you get far cheaper and long lasting headaches reading al the nonsens in threads like this .........flipflop said:
OK, cool down time.......
This M8 is going to be the death of us.
Let me sum it up, there are people who have purchased this camera, love it, to them no justification is necessary. If they are happy, that is great. I am sure you have a piece of gear that you think is the cat's meow too, love it, let others love theirs.
Others, myself included, have not been captured by the M8 for various reasons. That is great too, but who are we to criticize anyone else. We don't like it, fine.
Time to mellow out, hold your personal comments to yourselves.
These are just opinions, nothing more, all equally qualified, owner or not.
Discuss the topic please, stop trying to justify your own feelings on this issue by attacking each other.
This M8 is going to be the death of us.
Let me sum it up, there are people who have purchased this camera, love it, to them no justification is necessary. If they are happy, that is great. I am sure you have a piece of gear that you think is the cat's meow too, love it, let others love theirs.
Others, myself included, have not been captured by the M8 for various reasons. That is great too, but who are we to criticize anyone else. We don't like it, fine.
Time to mellow out, hold your personal comments to yourselves.
These are just opinions, nothing more, all equally qualified, owner or not.
Discuss the topic please, stop trying to justify your own feelings on this issue by attacking each other.
Kim Coxon
Moderator
You beat me to it. The only very minor consolation is that all the trolling/flameing is in one place.
Kim
The only very minor consolation is that all the trolling/flameing is in one place. Kim
rover said:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Hey Kim! Totally OT, but what is the landing speed of a 737? I was driving on the A3 next to Frankfurt airport at about 220 kph and it seemed this thing flew right beside me for about five kilometers. I could have tossed a biscuit onto its wing. Unfortunatly I could not turn around and get the M8 from the back seat, as traffic was rather dense....
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Kim Coxon
Moderator
That sounds about right, perhaps on the high side. The speed is tapered on the approach though dofferent companies may have slightly different policies. the "norm" is to keep a fairly constant power once you enter the approach phase and control the spped using the drag of the flaps and undercarriage. Initial "pattern" is about 210-220 Kts tapering to a touchdown spped of 115-130 Kts depending on aircraft weight and type. From memory, the AWACS (707) speed on the final approach path was around 145Kts which is around 240 KPH. That is the speed through the air. The speed over the ground will be that less the strength of the wind.
Kim
Kim
jaapv said:Hey Kim! Totally OT, but what is the landing speed of a 737? I was driving on the A3 next to Frankfurt airport at about 220 kph and it seemed this thing flew right beside me for about five kilometers. I could have tossed a biscuit onto its wing. Unfortunatly I could not turn around and get the M8 from the back seat, as traffic was rather dense....
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Thanks! For you is is everyday business, but for me it was rather spectacular. End of OT.
For you is is everyday business, but for me it was rather spectacular. End of OT.usayit
Well-known
jaapv said:
About as utter nonsense as the comment that nay sayers have not tried one. Its basically saying to keep your mouth shut if you haven't used one.... which is just plain wrong. In fact, its an insult to those "intelligent" consumers who did their research and decided that it was not worth their time and effort to even handle one. Simply put, Leica screwed up and the product went to market without significant testing.
$5k on a camera that cannot do what other digital cameras (1/5 the price) do just fine today. The cost of the sensor and all the electronics do not come close to the $5k price point..... its priced at $5k because Leica is making it off branding almost alone.. (They are no longer the mechanical wonders and works of art they used to be) Once these issues had come to light, they should have realized that $5k still doesn't make any sense and drastically discounted their "unfixable" models (still wouldn't purchase one). Once version 2 is released with everything resolved, then a $5k price point makes sense.
Yes.. I borrowed one shortly... build is pure leica... a bit slippery in my hands.. I so badly wanted one...
No I would not take one used unless it was really cheap... Even then, I'd probably end up selling it and taking that chunk of change towards a Canon 1ds MarkII or something like that. Other than it being a Leica using Leica glass, there is very little it can compare technology wise to the Canon 1ds MII and the top of the line Nikon. Those cameras btw... are more expensive... but their sticker price makes absolute sense and commercial / professional photographers everywhere have agreed.
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usayit
Well-known
rxmd said:
Utter nonsense.....
People don't bitch about the lever missing... they are just showing a preference they like. I have never heard anyone state that the advance lever was a deal breaker.
Schedule?? Sheesh... don't think so... Leica releases a camera at a pace of a turtle. We know that and we know why... I don't think that would have been a deal breaker either.
Now, the imaging issues that have been revealed.. yeh thats worth complaining about. That is a true deal breaker. If you call someone a bitch for making such statements... you too are bitching.
Outrageous pricing??? No way... the Canon 1ds MarkII was/is $8K, no one is bitching about pricing. Why? Because it does the job and delivers. Once you start talking multiples of $1000 bills, there is a higher expectation to be met than a $500 point and shoot. I suspect most consumers would agree.
BTW.. I own a r-d1. It too is a far from perfect camera but at the price i got it ($1100) it delivers just fine.
disclaimer:
I'm only using the Canon 1ds MII as an example because it costs as much and more than the Leica M8.... not pushing for a Canon vs Leica debate.
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Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Nobody has to justify anything. People are allowed to decide what to do with their $5K.
Perfdect camera does not exist. Just as perfect software does not exist.
Here's this $300K e-beam lithographjy machine at the lab at my work, and the software is a piece of cr@p. We constantly have the people coming over from the company to update the software and over and over again, new bugs are found. Hiccups like e.g. you want to produce 42 microdevices, completely identical ones, and 5 out of 42 come out a tad bit (5-10%) smaller than normal.
On how expensive a camer ais, it's not only the comparison with other cameras. It's also the people who buy it. For some of us, $5k means much less than for others. Some of us can buy two M8's at once and they don't have to justify anything to anyone (ok, maybe their wives, but not some unknown forum members from the other side of the globe). It's theiur decision and it's not our mission to tell them whether they were right or wrong when paying for it.
Perfdect camera does not exist. Just as perfect software does not exist.
Here's this $300K e-beam lithographjy machine at the lab at my work, and the software is a piece of cr@p. We constantly have the people coming over from the company to update the software and over and over again, new bugs are found. Hiccups like e.g. you want to produce 42 microdevices, completely identical ones, and 5 out of 42 come out a tad bit (5-10%) smaller than normal.
On how expensive a camer ais, it's not only the comparison with other cameras. It's also the people who buy it. For some of us, $5k means much less than for others. Some of us can buy two M8's at once and they don't have to justify anything to anyone (ok, maybe their wives
, but not some unknown forum members from the other side of the globe). It's theiur decision and it's not our mission to tell them whether they were right or wrong when paying for it.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Kim, how do you know about this landing stuff? Are you a pilot?
humanized_form
Established
yes
yes
i would definitely consider buying a used M8, maybe like six months to a year from now when all of the problems minus the IR have been resolved. i think a used m8 with maybe a 30-40% discount would be great. there just might be some available too, when those migrating to Leica from a dslr get frustrated and head back to the land of autofocus. hah.
i buy all my Leica stuff (and pretty much all my camera gear) with the used discount, i wouldn't own my M7 or 35mm Summilux Asph etc if i had to pay retail. Leica at new prices is crazy.
that said the M8 was the first Leica product i was planning to buy new and had budgeted for and been on a waiting list for. i scrapped the idea of being an early adopter when the design was unveiled (didn't like the idea of having to access a menu to display or adjust ISO or exp comp etc, in fact that still seems very un-Leica like to me) and when the IR issue was
outed.
yes
i would definitely consider buying a used M8, maybe like six months to a year from now when all of the problems minus the IR have been resolved. i think a used m8 with maybe a 30-40% discount would be great. there just might be some available too, when those migrating to Leica from a dslr get frustrated and head back to the land of autofocus. hah.
i buy all my Leica stuff (and pretty much all my camera gear) with the used discount, i wouldn't own my M7 or 35mm Summilux Asph etc if i had to pay retail. Leica at new prices is crazy.
that said the M8 was the first Leica product i was planning to buy new and had budgeted for and been on a waiting list for. i scrapped the idea of being an early adopter when the design was unveiled (didn't like the idea of having to access a menu to display or adjust ISO or exp comp etc, in fact that still seems very un-Leica like to me) and when the IR issue was
outed.
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Kim Coxon
Moderator
I have been a pilot in the RAF since '76. Initially Shackletons and then Nimrod. More recently on the AWACS and instructing basic pilots and navigators (or "weapon system operators" as they are now known.) I have been involved in most of the conflicts that the Brits have been involved in since the Falklands War. It puts a different perspective on things. It rather makes the petty bitching and name calling around the M8 rather pointless. I take photos for my enjoyment using cameras I like to use and can afford. I don't really care what others think of my gear and I don't really care what gear they choose to use. I am more interested in the photos they take and in learning in how to improve mine.
Mind you being a military pilot does give you some advantages. http://www.pentax-manuals.com/gallery/gallery.htm
Mind you being a military pilot does give you some advantages. http://www.pentax-manuals.com/gallery/gallery.htm
Pherdinand said:
nrj
Member
I have an M6 and I thought I would buy an M8 in a couple of years, and in the meantime experience more than a digital point and shoot by getting the RD1. Unfortunately the RD1 was faulty so my experience with it has been limited to a few hours shooting and my experience of the M8 to playing with it in a shop. I have read quite a bit about them on the net. I liked the RD1 a lot, the files have an interesting quality and print very well (largest I've gone is 17x22), and the handling, 1:1 vf and flip screen suits me, especially the vf because I could have a 50mm equivalent fov with 35mm dof. The M8 vf seemed somewhat cramped and small by comparison, the 24 and 35mm framelines seem too close together, and the 50 framelines seemed too small. Probably if I played with it some more I'd get used to this. I thought the shutter/recocking noise was loud, but I doubt its that bothersome to other people and I would live with it. I didn't warm to the screen much, or the wheel on the back of the camera, or the need to use the menus to change iso, wb, or exposure comp. I saw some printed output and it looked good, and some of the posted images impress with their detail and clarity. All these things would go through my mind when considering either a new or used one. Factors that would put me off buying come down to camera usability and reliabilty. Some of the obvious early problems look like being fixed, but there are a number remaining and I'm interested to see whether these are dealt with in the next few months. I have older lenses and don't really want to get them coded, I'm less bothered about the use of IR filters, more bothered by the need to buy them. I'd also prefer not to spend a lot of time post-processing just to get the image technically up to par, especially on colour rendition. In two years the M8 could look great value or expensive depending on what happens. I'd certainly like to see a healthy dRF market with more than one player then.
RF-Addict
Well-known
I would only buy a used M8 if it were a refurb with a warranty and was at the most half of what it costs new. I do think that 5K is very expensive and I don't see the M8 in the same league as the Canon 1Ds - most folks who buy the 8K Canon cameras are pros and they use/abuse these cameras constantly - which is why they have to built like a tank.
The M8 on the other hand clearly targets the non-pro market and for that it is verprized, esp. given all the shortcomings it has. I find it absolutely ridiculous that you have to put a filter on the lens to make this camera see black. Again if it were a $1K camera I could overlook that issue, but not for 5K - sorry.
The M8 on the other hand clearly targets the non-pro market and for that it is verprized, esp. given all the shortcomings it has. I find it absolutely ridiculous that you have to put a filter on the lens to make this camera see black. Again if it were a $1K camera I could overlook that issue, but not for 5K - sorry.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
It must be the forum you are reading;or the glasses you are reading it with.Over at LUF more than half the M8 users seem to be pro's and Leica calls it a professional camera. And what profession do you think the Magnum group photographers have for instance??? And why should non-professional photographers not be able to pay for it?rxmd
May contain traces of nut
I would tend to agree with you; I haven't come up with those points myself. I was just restating a number points made in the various M8 forums over time. People apparently do care and complain about these things, including advance levers. Also the verb "to bitch" wasn't really my own invention in this context, as you can easily verify by doing a search for "bitch" or "bitching" in any M8 forum.usayit said:
Philipp
Ben Z
Veteran
jaapv said:
Thank God it doesn't cost as much to spruce up a 60 yr old camera...or to trade up to a new one
Jaap I'm sure Leica would be happy to take whatever donation you feel would bring your cost up to what you feel it's actually worth
A very fair assessment. As much as I have to criticize the M8 I still can't completely rule out purchasing one at some point, which I think says it all.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Ben Z said:Jaap I'm sure Leica would be happy to take whatever donation you feel would bring your cost up to what you feel it's actually worth
I do think, with two M8's and a list of lenses as long as your arm, that I have done my bit to prop up the company.rsl
Russell
Hear, hear! I think most of us who are criticizing the obviously catastrophic release of this camera really expect Leica to get its act together somewhere down the line so we can have a digital Leica M that's a top-of-the line professional piece of equipment. I hope it happens soon, and I think it'll be a terrible loss if it doesn't happen at some point.
hth
Well-known
No, I do not think I would buy a used one. Price would probably be too close to a new one for quite some time, and in that case I would go and buy a new one, not that I can afford it.
When price eventually drops, I think I will be in a position where I want some other camera.
At the moment I am quite happy with what I have. Maybe I will trade some lens, or downsize the collection at some point, we'll see.
I would not mind trying out an M8, but I cannot really justify the cost, new or second hand.
/Håkan
When price eventually drops, I think I will be in a position where I want some other camera.
At the moment I am quite happy with what I have. Maybe I will trade some lens, or downsize the collection at some point, we'll see.
I would not mind trying out an M8, but I cannot really justify the cost, new or second hand.
/Håkan