So- You are Leica's New CEO - What to do ?

[JeffNYC]

I read somewhere that Oliver Kaltner led up the XBox dept in Germany when PlayStation was the market leader a few years ago. It's my understanding that XBox was one of the few things worked out for Microsoft in recent years. And the experience of competing as an underdog may serve him well on his new job ... although I remain being skeptical.

John

XBox connection.

Ok, so let's assume that the next M will have some type of contemporary wifi ability.

In this day and age, to use the camera (competitively) in journalism - images need to be uploaded quickly / on-site.

jeff

 

[NickTrop]

1. Get out of the crazy competitive consumer camera body business in digital and just make lenses in other mounts. Be a "high-end" Tokina. Want a "Leica" for your Nikon? How about your Canon? Continue to make film M's on a small scale/high price. Rationale -- really, Leica, in terms of digital bodies, has nothing to offer that the Japanese haven't already done for a fraction of the price. There's nothing "there" worth paying thousands of dollars of a premium -- unless you've sunk loads into Leica glass. And that, frankly, is nothing short of extortion over a proprietary lens mount. Get the hell out of the digital body business -- focus on the glass. Your only competition here would be Zeiss vs the Japanese consumer electronic giants you're competing against now.

2. Sell out to Panasonic.

 

[jsrockit]

Rationale -- really, Leica, in terms of digital bodies, has nothing to offer that the Japanese haven't already done for a fraction of the price. There's nothing "there" worth paying thousands of dollars of a premium -- unless you've sunk loads into Leica glass.

Well, I'm ready to purchase a Japanese digital camera with a mechanical rangefinder at a fraction of the price of a Leica... can you post the link where I can get this?

 

[Calzone]

1. Get out of the crazy competitive consumer camera body business in digital and just make lenses in other mounts. Be a "high-end" Tokina. Want a "Leica" for your Nikon? How about your Canon? Continue to make film M's on a small scale/high price. Rationale -- really, Leica, in terms of digital bodies, has nothing to offer that the Japanese haven't already done for a fraction of the price. There's nothing "there" worth paying thousands of dollars of a premium -- unless you've sunk loads into Leica glass. And that, frankly, is nothing short of extortion over a proprietary lens mount. Get the hell out of the digital body business -- focus on the glass. Your only competition here would be Zeiss vs the Japanese consumer electronic giants you're competing against now.

Nick,

Where can I find a Japanese "Monochrom?"

I can see the point of where if you need a film M that one could easily buy a used M-body and have it overhauled for a great cost savings. No need to buy a new one. Also you are correct, many have tied up thousands of dollars or even tens of thousands on Leica glass.

Cal

 

[NickTrop]

Nick,

Where can I find a Japanese "Monochrom?"

I can see the point of where if you need a film M that one could easily buy a used M-body and have it overhauled for a great cost savings. No need to buy a new one. Also you are correct, many have tied up thousands of dollars or even tens of thousands on Leica glass.

Cal

But that's the point. There are not enough "Cals" willing to drop $8,000 for a Leica Monochrom. Most photographers will spend a fraction of that on a full frame "regular" DSLR -- a Nikon or Canon, shoot raw and convert in SW in post. "Substitutes" do exist in the market, in economist-speak. Leica simply can't offer sufficient product differentiation to justify the price-points they're asking to "enough" people to hit revenue targets.

It's kinda "game over" as I see it -- at least as far as digital bodies are concerned. Glass is another matter. Make new, classic M bodies -- hell, subcontract that out to Cosina.

The question was posed, "What would I do if I was Leica CEO?" I would get out of a market I can't compete in -- digital bodies. And expand where there is demand -- Leica glass, by offering it in other mounts. I'd subcontract film M's to Cosina for production (and charge the same price...) and ride out the film market for as long as it makes sense.

A Nikon 'Cron? (A "Ni-cron"?) They'd fly off the shelves.

 

[CameraQuest]

ADMIN EDIT: Some off topic posts deleted
Please keep on topic.

 

[Calzone]

But that's the point. There are not enough "Cals" willing to drop $8,000 for a Leica Monochrom. Most photographers will spend a fraction of that on a full frame "regular" DSLR -- a Nikon or Canon, shoot raw and convert in SW in post. "Substitutes" do exist in the market, in economist-speak. Leica simply can't offer sufficient product differentiation to justify the price-points they're asking to "enough" people to hit revenue targets.

It's kinda "game over" as I see it -- at least as far as digital bodies are concerned. Glass is another matter. Make new, classic M bodies -- hell, subcontract that out to Cosina.

The question was posed, "What would I do if I was Leica CEO?" I would get out of a market I can't compete in -- digital bodies. And expand where there is demand -- Leica glass, by offering it in other mounts. I'd subcontract film M's to Cosina for production (and charge the same price...) and ride out the film market for as long as it makes sense.

A Nikon 'Cron? (A "Ni-cron"?) They'd fly off the shelves.

Nick,

Thanks for the clarity. What you say makes a lot of sense. Nail the profits where you can compete and create/take over market share. This is just good business.

I agree with you that digital bodies are a mature market, but then again the Monochrom is a unique boutique camera that surely is a nitch market with its own buyers. How many times can a company do this?

If I could get a 50 Lux in F-mount that had a working auto-diaphram I buy it and a 28 Elmarit version 2 in F-mount.

Cal

 

[Darthfeeble]

Nick,

Where can I find a Japanese "Monochrom?"

I can see the point of where if you need a film M that one could easily buy a used M-body and have it overhauled for a great cost savings. No need to buy a new one. Also you are correct, many have tied up thousands of dollars or even tens of thousands on Leica glass.

Cal

Cal, have you looked at the files coming from the various Fuji "rangefinder style" cameras? The X Pro 1 in particular has a very satisfying viewfinder.

 

[Calzone]

Cal, have you looked at the files coming from the various Fuji "rangefinder style" cameras? The X Pro 1 in particular has a very satisfying viewfinder.

D,

I never considered anything digital until the Monochrom came along. I thought I would just be a B&W only film die-hard, but then Leica actually built the perfect camera for me.

Been shooting a MM for over two years now. It demands a level of perfection that is well rewarded, but is likely the most unforgiving camera one can shoot. Not at all like shooting a color camera and converting to B&W. I am very impressed with the IQ and have had prints made as large as 24x36 on 30x40 inch paper using Digital Silver Imaging. I can actually print up to 60x72 with a good file shot at a high shutter speed and perform a "Salgado" meaning crazy large wet prints.

I'm greatful and lucky that Leica made this boutique camera that is not for everyone. It is kinda like Lieca made the Monochrom especially for me. I still shoot film, but not so much 120 like I use to. Lately I've been using Piezography to print to take advantage of the IQ and tonality the Monochrom can produce. It is like a dream come true.

Anyways Leica made me my dream camera and I wish some day to share this work with the world. Leica did a brave thing and made something big that im my world is a game changer. Never thought I would embrace digital, never thought that I could meet or exceed medium format quality in a small format digital, especially in B&W.

Not sure how radical ideas can be a sustainable business, but my dream came true.

Cal

 

[zuiko85]

Make a digital back to convert any film M body into a digital camera. Make the conversion reversible so you can switch back to film just by clipping on the film back again.

Bundle this with the new MA for $6K. (Hint' get someone else to make this back for you)

To accomplish this give up a little bit of format size. The sensor could be 20X30mm.

If you sell the digital back by itself set the price at $1500

 

[NickTrop]

There words - lenses, lenses, lenses.

Leica's electronics has never been competitive. Developing a Leica line of optics compatible with the most popular DSLR/mirrorless bodies will not dilute Leica camera body sales. Leica could even develop lines of AF lenses. The optics and essential mechanical bit could be made in Europe, assembled overseas and then rigorously tested back in Europe. The marketing strategies can be diverse. Everything from reviving old Leica coatings and optic designs to the ultra-high performance is possible.

Keep on mind DSLR functionality and image IQ have plateaued. Enthusiasts and pros could differentiate themselves by using Leica glass.

When there is a breakthrough in digital imaging technology, Leica will not be able to implement that technology in a timely fashion (unless CMOSIS invents the breakthrough). Either way selling excellent, value-added lenses to very little impact on M body sales. SONY, Fujifilm and others already took a sliver (niche of a niche of that miniscule customer demographic anyway.

Leica probably has business agreements with Panasonic that make this plan moot.

It is good to learn the new CEO has experience in a digital electronics product (XBOX). Perhaps he will be able to assess how Leica can excel in digital electronics. At this point leveraging Leica's film M camera excellence to shape customer opinion of digital Ms is rapidly approaching obsolesce.

Hey -- I said that three pages ago! Obviously, I agree. Focus on lenses. Get the hell out of the digital body business. Can they make boutique digital bodies? Sure. Are they great cameras? I'm sure they are. Can they sell enough of them at this price point to survive long-term? I don't think so.

Get out of the digital body market -- focus on making Leica glass available in other mounts -- as many as possible.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Why would they do that? They will have to go from a handmade product to a mass produced lens manufacturer or they will be to expensive to compete. They would loose what they are. The MM is by far my favorite digital camera BY FAR.

 

[mfogiel]

They have to create a NEED for a Leica, which has nothing to do with the camera function as such, just like Rolex watches are mainly useless as timepieces, but quite sought after.
Cameras are all declining in sale.
A James Bond wearing a Leica with some secret weapons inside???

 

[jsrockit]

Why would they do that? They will have to go from a handmade product to a mass produced lens manufacturer or they will be to expensive to compete. They would loose what they are. The MM is by far my favorite digital camera BY FAR.

I agree... Leica trying to compete on price would (seemingly) be a huge mistake.

 

[willie_901]

Why would they do that? They will have to go from a handmade product to a mass produced lens manufacturer or they will be to expensive to compete. They would loose what they are. The MM is by far my favorite digital camera BY FAR.

Easy... have a hand-made line to compliment the mass-produced linethat is essentially identical but guaranteed to have at least 5% better performance (via less manufacturing variance) than the standard line. Regardless of the product, people with financial means know creating the last 5 to 10% in performance is very expensive. Anyway, you may have missed the part where I said the lenses could be stringently tested in Europe to insure only the highest possible quality would reach consumers.

Leica already lost what they were. The world and consumers have changed.

I think the MM is a great concept in a world where consumers will pay extra to differentiate themselves from the masses. The market share of B&W purists is minuscule, so self-perceived differentiation is the way to market the MM.

 

[willie_901]

I agree... Leica trying to compete on price would (seemingly) be a huge mistake.

I agree.

Who said the price had to be competitive with Sigma, Tokina, Tameron etc? It doesn't. Authentic optical excellence and extraordinary customer service along with leveraging Leica's reputation will attract people who can afford the best.

Selling a lot of lenses at a reasonable premium will generate cash flow.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Who in the one size fits all DSLR world is willing to pay the price for Leica glass then? Not many. I think they have a market. They just need to produce solid products for that market. If they try to compete with the Fujis, Sonys, Nikons and Canons they will be gone in a heartbeat in my opinion. Where else can you go to get a B&W dedicated rangefinder. Their manual focus glass is some of the finest money can buy. I, for one, when shooting with my MM, am so glad it is manual focus with really useful DoF scale on the lens. Pay attention to what those companies I mentioned are doing technically and use what technology you think would benefit your core customers. I, and there are many more, like a camera that does not separate me from the process like most of the one size fits all products that are already all over the market. Those products are everywhere but having a product like the MM is one way Leica can keep themselves separate from the herd. If they try to compete with that market it will not end well because in that one size fits all world they are way behind. But that's a good thing that they should keep capitalizing on.

 

[jsrockit]

Those products are everywhere but having a product like the MM is one way Leica can keep themselves separate from the herd. If they try to compete with that market it will not end well becasue in that one size fits all world they are way behind. But that's a good thing that they should keep capitalizing on.

While I don't think the rest of the camera manufacturers are in a one size fits all world, I do agree that Leica is a true alternative to everything else out there.

 

[airfrogusmc]

While I don't think the rest of the camera manufacturers are in a one size fits all world, I do agree that Leica is a true alternative to everything else out there.

In my opinion I think most are. Trying to appeal to a majority instead of a small company like Leica that was and should be for those that are not seeking all the gadgets. Cameras like the MM that you can't get anywhere else. I am willing to pay more for a camera that is first a rangefinder and second has a lack of bells and whistles. I have Canons that i use to do a lot of my color corporate work but I am probably not going go Canon when they die or get retired. Hoping that Leica comes out with a real stripped down M 240. I will buy two if they do.

 

[jsrockit]

In my opinion I think most are. Trying to appeal to a majority instead of a small company like Leica that was and should be for those that are not seeking all the gadgets.

That's true... but you do have Sigma. They said they do not make $ on the cameras they make but believed it was important to make cameras (as opposed to just lenses). That said, some mainstream cameras are really great and some are innovative while trying to sell to the masses.