Sonnar 50/1.5 for Contax question

[squirrel$$$bandit]

I've been in the market for a postwar Contax-mount Sonnar f/1.5. I have an f/2, and it's marked "Zeiss-Opton," and so have been looking for a Zeiss-Opton 1.5.

But what about if it just says "Carl Zeiss"? Is this one of the postwar coated non-alloy lenses? Or did CZJ use this marking too?

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

OK, maybe I answered it myself. This was on Wikipedia: "from the beginning of lens manufacture up to the end of the Second World War, all Zeiss lenses were marked "Carl Zeiss Jena". Since the new Oberkochen-based Carl Zeiss Optical company is not in Jena, its products are simply marked "Carl Zeiss", while the original factory carried on using the "Carl Zeiss Jena" marking. For the first few years Carl Zeiss of Oberkochen used the "Zeiss-Opton" marking."

So a lens marked "Carl Zeiss" would be one of the latest postwar ones, then, correct? Are the Opton ones any different from the later "Carl Zeiss" ones?

 

[johank]

CZ made coated lenses before the war, indeed they invented it! My 1938 II came with a vere neat prewar 1,5 Sonnar. Zwiss and Sweden got coated lenses before and during the war.
If looks bluish it's coated....
Good luck, great lens.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

CZ made coated lenses before the war, indeed they invented it! My 1938 II came with a vere neat prewar 1,5 Sonnar. Zwiss and Sweden got coated lenses before and during the war.
If looks bluish it's coated....
Good luck, great lens.

Does your lens say "Carl Zeiss Jena"? I briefly had a coated CZJ version of this lens, but it didn't work out--it is now part of the Brian Sweeney collection. ;-)

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar's were coated on a regular basis since ~1939 or so.

The post-war East German Zeiss lenses retained the "Jena" in the name, the post-war West German Zeiss lenses first used "Opton", but later dropped it ~SN 14xxxxx or so. Personally, I have the best luck with the Zeiss Opton. At some point the "Zeiss" (no Opton or Jena) lenses switched optical cement and I've seen a number of lenses with separation.

I'll be trying the Post War CZJ 5cm F1.5 on the Contax II.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

Personally, I have the best luck with the Zeiss Opton. At some point the "Zeiss" (no Opton or Jena) lenses switched optical cement and I've seen a number of lenses with separation.

Well, I'm asking because Dan Orchard at KEH is holding an EX specimen for me at a good price, SN 197xxxx, so presumably there is no separation. And I know they'll take it back if I don't like it. I'm gonna give it a shot, esp. since Raid seems to have decided to keep his!

 

[raid]

There is an Opton and there is Opton T. Are these lenses different?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

They are "about" the same. Zeiss Opton 50/1.5's changed construction and slight changes in formula through the run. Kind of like the Nikkor 5cm F1.4. The only way to know with the Zeiss lens is to take it apart. But overall, performance is the same. I'm not sure why they changed the design, and the SN's run in parallel.

Go for the Zeiss lens at KEH.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

I did!

As far as that Jena lens I sent you...let me know what happens. Personally, I think it's haunted.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Postwar CZJ 5cm F1.5 is on a Contax IIIa. I checked the focus through the TTL viewer, and it agrees exactly with two pre-war 5cm f1.5 lenses.

WHAT is different about this lens: the rear retaining ring is larger in diameter than the pre-war 5cm f1.5 lenses and the Zeiss-Opton 50/1.5 lenses. When viewed through the back of the camera with the shutter open, it "might be" that this ring is interfering with the RF pickup wheel. At close distance, should not make much difference. At distance and infinity it might explain the problem. SO: be careful when using a post-war CZJ 5cm F1.5 Sonnar with an M-Adapter. I will post shots with the lens using the Contax IIIa.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

This is the first I've actually heard about problems with an adapted 50. Odd! Have you ever seen a Sonnar with this size retaining ring before?

It's all for the best I unloaded it, Brian--I was mostly going to use it with the adapter.

 

[ZeissFan]

The construction of the prewar and postwar Zeiss lenses, including the Sonnars, differs quite a bit. The prewar Sonnar uses shims to achieve proper focus while the postwar lens uses a threaded collar for that purpose. The threaded collar, while more accurate, requires the person to fully seat the lens and tighten the rear retaining ring during collimation.

Briefly, the breakdown of the Carl Zeiss lenses is this:

1) Carl Zeiss Jena (no red "T"): Prewar uncoated lenses in a heavy chrome mount. Some lenses near the end of World War II were coated and a few are in lightweight alloy. And some prewar lenses were coated by a third party, but these lenses in general will not have any designation on the lens ring. The earliest lenses for the Contax I are in nickel and black mounts -- very handsome and somewhat expensive. Remember, it was the Zeiss lenses that were the key component of the Contax system. Zeiss had an outstanding, sharp f/1.5 lens (Sonnar) well before Leica had a comparable offering.

2) Carl Zeiss Jena "T": For the most part, these are East German lenses and are in lightweight alloy mount. You can feel the weight difference between the East German optic and their West German counterparts.

3) Zeiss-Opton "T": Coated West German lenses in a heavy chrome and steel mount.

4) Carl Zeiss (no "T"): Zeiss dropped the "T" with these final series of coated lenses. Again, a heavy chrome and steel mount.

Now, to further confuse you, you'll encounter some very early postwar Zeiss-Opton uncoated lenses on folding cameras. I've seen these on at least two Super Ikontas. It's the time near the end of World War II and immediately postwar where production can blur.

But in general, the Carl Zeiss lenses are divide into those four groups.: No "T," and it should either be uncoated prewar CZ Jena or coated West German Carl Zeiss. Red "T" will be either East German CZ Jena or West German Zeiss-Opton -- both are postwar.

Zeiss also reformulated many of its lenses over time, but never made a big deal about it, and I don't think users make a big deal over it either. Brian is right about the Carl Zeiss lenses -- I've seen a number with separation, which has little effect optically but they look like hell.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Post-War (>3M) Contax mount CZJ Sonnar that I just worked on (and bought) uses a Shim. The construction of the optics module is different from the Wartime and pre-war Lenses. The rear group does not come in a fixture, but as raw glass. The fixture of the optics module is one piece, with the glass fitted into it and held in my a retaining ring. I always wondered why the J-3 changed construction. It also followed this design, changing over sometime in the early 60s.

There are also a good number of Carl Zeiss Jena "T" 5cm F1.5 lenses made before 1945. These are made using lighter alloy, but same physical layout as the prewar lenses. OF NOTE: Hidden set screws holding on the name ring and rear optics fixture. The set screw holding on the name ring is under the aperture ring. You have to remove it before using a spanner. The Postwar lenses do not have these hidden set screws.

The West German Zeiss Opton lenses have at least two construction styles. I'm not sure why, and cannot separate by SN. They run in parallel. It has to do with how the glass is set in the fixtures, whether it comes out as bare glass or in a fixture. The optical groups from the two styles cannot be interchanged.

 

[paxnobiscum]

I just received a mint 5 cm 1.5, non "T", Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar, for Contax. Serial nr. 2185937. I guess it should be uncoated - but I'm not sure, as it seems to have a *very* faint blue tint at the front glass.

Can some helpful soul tell me the year of production or point me to a good reference regarding CZJ lens serial numbers.

With thanks in advance.

Petur Thorsteinsson
Iceland

 

[Sonnar Brian]

If the very faint tint is a bit uneven, it might be "Bloom" on the glass. This is natural for older uncoated glass, kind of a "glaze" thet led to the development of coatings. It is a factor of aging on optical glass. It acts as a coating. I just received two 5cm F1.5 Sonnars, both uncoated. They both have a nice bloom on the front and rear surface. I'll be turning at least one of these lenses in Leica mount.

I have an early 5cm f1.5 Sonnar that is coated on the front element only. Might be done after manufacture. It is a beautiful blue coating, and the glass is near perfect. I made it into LTM and use it on my Canon P.

 

[raid]

Thanks to all concerned for the extra clarifications on "T" and "no T" models.

The Opton is a post-war lens,so maybe the differences are minimal or not even existent.

 

[jmkelly]

I just checked my two Zeiss-Opton Sonnars on my Amadeo M-adapter. The rear retaining ring on each these particular lenses (SNs 101xxxx & 112xxxx) is recessed from the RF cam pickup ring by about 1.5mm. Brian - are there particular lenses where interference is a problem? Or particular adapters?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I held the post-war Carl Zeiss Jena lens up against the Zeiss Opton and Zeiss (West German) lens, and the rear ring was bigger. I use the Zeiss 50/1.5 SN 14xxxxx with my Amedeo adapter. The Post-War CZJ Sonnar lens on a Hong-Kong M-Adapter on the Bessa R2 seemed to catch the RF wheel "sometimes". Focussing back and forth on the same object yielded a different reading, off my 1M at a 5M distance.

SO: combination of lens, adapter, and size and exact position of camera's RF wheel.

I have never had a problem with the Post-War Zeiss/Zeiss Opton lens or CZJ Wartime/Prewar 5cm f1.5 lenses with SN below 3Million. The construction is different from this post-war CZJ lens.

 

[outfitter]

CZ made coated lenses before the war, indeed they invented it! My 1938 II came with a vere neat prewar 1,5 Sonnar. Zwiss and Sweden got coated lenses before and during the war.
If looks bluish it's coated....
Good luck, great lens.

That is part of the received truth, but somebody recently posted here a wartime report from the Frankfort Arsenal in the USA that certainly indicates that the process was known and used during WWI.

While on the subject of 'it ain't necessarily so' the early Zeiss-Opton lenses tended to be not as good as the much damned Zeiss Jena T lenses because the Western factory workers were new to the work. In regard to the just plain Carl Zeiss lenses the Sonnar 1.5 is truly superb but subject to lens separation so watch out!

 

[ZeissFan]

For production dates of Carl Zeiss lenses, visit the Zeiss Ikon Collectors Group on Yahoo Groups. They will be able to give year and often month of production, as well as where it sits in the batch of lenses produced.

Here's the Web address:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZICG

You have to be a member to post. It keeps out the vile spammers.