Sony NEX3 and NEX5 EVIL cameras with new E-mount

NickTrop said:
So, how do you get people to buy into this? Take a page from auto manufacturers... (In fact, this whole thing is copped from the auto industry...) Make the camera look cool! Yeah, give it a "cute" retrto design! Clean lines, now that we've gotten rid of the unsightly "hump" that houses the prism - and while we're at it, let's get rid of the flash too! Yeah! So, if these "enthusiasts" wanna use a flash? They have to buy another accessory.
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Maybe Olympus is positioning themselves to be the next Leica... :)
 
NickTrop said:
Here's a good article on sensor sizes,...


blah blah blah...

I will hereby refer to 4/3 cameras as the "4/3 racket". ///

As Ric Flair used to say, "...that's just the way it is, learn to love it. Wooooo!"
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Wow, I go away for a few weeks/months, and it's like time has stood still

I do rememebr you said you loved the Samsung NX10 and anyone who didn't was an idiot and any denials only proved your case.

How are you getting on with it? Have you taken any photos with it or just spent all your time repeating the same slogans?
 
From the Luminous Landscape review:
Gotchas

There are several gotchas. Here's just one annoyance that I found hugely frustrating.
There is an auto-ISO capability. Fine; though it's limited to ISO 1600 at the high end while the camera can go to ISO 12800. But when you switch to Manual shooting mode the camera disables Auto-ISO and defaults to ISO 200. OK. Now I set it to what I want, say ISO 800. Later though, when I switch back to another shooting mode, such as Program, the camera doesn't return to Auto-ISO the way it was before, but sticks to the ISO which I set set in Manual mode. Frustrating.
Here's another. You find yourself in a situation where you want to use the camera's remarkable HDR capability. You press Menu / Brightness - Color / scroll five clicks to DRO - Auto HDR, press Select, scroll several clicks (it's a circle) to Auto HDR, press the Option button, scroll the wheel to select the number of stops of compensation needed, and then press Select. Whew.
Got that? OK. Now, when you want to turn HDR off you have to go through most of that again. Oh yes, and if you have the camera set to raw, or raw + JPG, the HDR menu selection will tell you that the function is not available, but won't even hint as to why it isn't.
And if you have the screen display mode set to minimal information you will have no idea of what mode the camera is in (HDR on or off), and if it doesn't do what you expect, you won't know why. And this is claimed to be a camera designed for the newcomer!​

May I politely suggest that Sony have their NEX user interface designers be assigned window seats and that the company hire some new ones as quickly as possible?
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LOOOOOL!!!!
​
 
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NickTrop said:
2. And while we're at it, let's get rid of the next most expensive thing - the optical viewfinder, so you have to hold your arm out to frame and replace it with a cheaper to produce LCD (just like a cheap point-n-shoot...). (How is it that the many of the same users who tout, and pay a premium for, the excellent rangefinders in Leica are satisfied with just an LCD?) I can just hear the meetings in Oly's marketing department - In fact, "JB", while we're at it we can sucker these "enthusiasts" to pay even more by charging a premium for a viewfinder hotshoe accessory!

So, how do you get people to buy into this? Take a page from auto manufacturers... (In fact, this whole thing is copped from the auto industry...) Make the camera look cool! Yeah, give it a "cute" retrto design! Clean lines, now that we've gotten rid of the unsightly "hump" that houses the prism - and while we're at it, let's get rid of the flash too! Yeah! So, if these "enthusiasts" wanna use a flash? They have to buy another accessory. Cheap out on the innards, make the camera look cool. Want other basic features other less expensive cameras have? It's an "accessory". All ala carte... (Make sure we have a Leica lens adapter ready before we go to market... heh, heh - wink...)
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I suppose you aren't refering to the G1 here. It includes your "unsightly hump" and flash.

~Joe
 
antiquark said:
Except for those 4/3 outfits that are larger than FF outfits:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/minami/509320258/
509320258_a0911a9c50.jpg
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SLR vs mirror less Rangefinder - not even close to a fair comparison. Compare the panasonic 25mm to a canon 24mm 1.4L or a nikkor 24mm 1.4G and then you have a fair comparison.

And while that particular lens is quite large, it's also a significantly better lens than the canon/nikon/sony 50mm f1.4 lenses.
 
Paul T. said:
Wow, I go away for a few weeks/months, and it's like time has stood still

I do rememebr you said you loved the Samsung NX10 and anyone who didn't was an idiot and any denials only proved your case.

How are you getting on with it? Have you taken any photos with it or just spent all your time repeating the same slogans?
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I would also love to hear the answer to this - I had my ass kicked about how amazing the samsung nx10 was/is - super curious to see how you're finding it Nick?
 
My first impressions based on hands on reviews of these sony's is that they seem to have a very good sensor in a crappy little point and shoot body with nearly no user control, paired with pretty average lenses that look cooler than they perform....


Funny/interesting points from the LL hands-on:

To format a card one must go to Setup and then click the down button 28 times to find it. There are no shortcuts or My Memory settings available. This is a serious design error in my view, and frankly, a pain in the ass. And yes, you can scroll instead of click, but it's still a long way down.
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In fact, the entire menu system, while attractive to the newcomer to cameras, with lots of pretty illustrations and colours, does nothing but get in the way of the more experienced used. It's manageable, but frankly accessing such commonly used controls as ISO should not require navigating menus. Sony's minimalist approach to buttons on the NEX-5 has gone much too far for my taste.
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One final thought on the menu system, at least for the more experienced user. There is no quick access to the ISO setting. It is only accessible via menus – Menu / Brightness Color / ISO. The bottom soft button meanwhile is normally labeled Shoot -Tips and is of little use to the experienced user.
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I really wanted to like the camera enough to add one and a couple of lenses to my kit, but in the end, after a solid couple of days of shooting with it prior to its return to Sony, I decided that as attractive as many of its features were, it would be too frustrating to use on an everyday basis.
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I guess it wouldn't matter for Nick though, the nex3 and 5 will probably get a 74.8 color depth score on DXO compared to the 72.5 that the m4/3 sensors get, which means it's a much better camera and that m4/3 should be banished from earth.
 
fdigital said:
I would also love to hear the answer to this - I had my ass kicked about how amazing the samsung nx10 was/is - super curious to see how you're finding it Nick?
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I ended up not buying it. I was excited about the concept of an EVIL camera. I want a compact camera, preferable with a pancake lens - fixed. I really liked the Samsung was doing, thought they were really on to something (they are) and think the EVILS are the wave of the future. Perhaps eclipsing DSLRs - we'll see. I obviously don't like 4/3rds, overpriced compared to DSLRs, too many compromises. I went all through that on this thread, obvs, the the chagrin of a few. So, why didn't I get it?

1. Problem with video implementation. A bug, clips the end of clips. Didn't know about that. Not an issue for most but it's an issue for me. This was essentially the maj. deal breaker.

2. Some "menza menz" reviews on IQ

3. Waited and waited for the camera to be released... Finally released, but only with the kit zoom (that - like all kit zooms, I have zero interest in...) not the pancake lens. Nobody could tell me when body + pancake would be available. Some time in the summer? Fall? 6 mos from now?

4. Started reading up on options (of which 4/3 cameras were not...) Happened upon the Nikon D5000... didn't know much about it. Liked its specs, positive reviews, articulated screen, like its quiet shutter mode... It's essentially a D90 with a different body. I also like how it implemented its video capture - MJPEG, 24p, 720. Then when I read that Nikon has a really good inexpensive 35mm f1.8 prime that came out in '09 for DX cameras - essentially a fast "nifty fifty", and that deeply discounted refurbs (by Nikon) were available... I went to a camera store, checked it out, bought at B&H.

Yes, quite happy with my 1st "serious" digital kit. 35mm film has more depth, character, etc., and it's nowhere near medium format, but it's nice to take pics of "near 35mm" quality and snap away without the consumable that is film. Think it's a great value. The thing that kept me away from DSLRs initially were their size and the lack of good modern reasonably fast 50mm equiv primes that autofocus. Deal breaker - to me, which camera companies are beginning to negate by making a few... Had Nikon not had this lens available at a "non-silly" price, I would have never considered it.

4/3'rds - you can keep... Unless the cut the costof those things by, like, half...
 
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JoeV said:
I suppose you aren't refering to the G1 here. It includes your "unsightly hump" and flash.

~Joe
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Don't worry, it's a clear case of hasty generalization and since it's NickTrop's argument, it's correct and logical

Number of M4/3 cameras with "unsightly hump" and flash: 3 (G1, G2, GH1)
Number of M4/3 cameras w/o "unsightly hump" and flash: 2 (E-P1, E-P2)
Number of M4/3 cameras which have either "unsightly hump" or flash: 2 (GF1, E-PL1)

I guess when a percentage of population is unemployed, everybody is statistically unemployed!
 
And BEHOLD!!! The mammoth aps-c sensor compared to the miniscule 4/3 sensor:

Screenshot2010-06-01at21529PM.png


Oh woe is me, how will I ever utilize this tiny piece of silicon to produce pictures when it is so much smaller than the monolith that is the APS-C...
 
Read that article... Glad I didn't get that camera. I was pretty psyched about it initially, as I think the EVILS are the way to go but Samsung blew it in some key areas (stupidly I might add...) Perhaps Sony will be better...
 
NickTrop said:
Read that article... Glad I didn't get that camera. I was pretty psyched about it initially, as I think the EVILS are the way to go but Samsung blew it in some key areas (stupidly I might add...) Perhaps Sony will be better...
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What you might perhaps deduce from it, is that theoretically numbers as measurements of a cameras performance works, but in practice, it doesn't always equate to a good camera.

The sony's don't even have a direct iso button.
 
<credulous>But, but, but, but... DxO gives the E-PL1 a "sensor score" of 54, and it gives the GX20 (which presumably shares sensor tech with the NX10) a score of 67.7!!! How can this be????</credulous>
 
semilog said:
<credulous>But, but, but, but... DxO gives the E-PL1 a "sensor score" of 54, and it gives the GX20 (which presumably shares sensor tech with the NX10) a score of 67.7!!! How can this be????</credulous>
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LOL... and you'll evaluate performance based on a random picture some Jabroni posts online who you don't know from Adam... As the famous line from Ed Wood's Plan 9 from Outer Space goes... "That proves it!"

Sorry, I'll still stick with the objective measure from a respected company that measures optics and sensors for a living over said Jabroni's user experience, though I will take it into account. Now if we had some statistically valid numbers with a large enough sample size of all use experiences that would be meaningful. But we don't... So what do I choose to use? This (see below). Logical, no?

Objective measurements of RAW image quality are an essential component of any analysis of digital cameras. DxO Labs has developed a new scale for digital camera image quality performance, called DxOMark Sensor, to serve as an additional tool to help photographers rank and compare digital cameras. Essentials about the DxOMark Sensor scale:

1. DxOMark Sensor measures only the RAW image quality of a digital camera; therefore, DxOMark Sensor is NOT an evaluation of overall camera image quality or performance.
2. DxOMark Sensor is a logarithmic scale in which a 5-point increase corresponds to a sensitivity gain of 1/3 of a stop.
3. DxOMark Sensor AND resolution: two metrics of sensor performance.
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/DxOMark-Sensor

As far as my "flip-flop" on the Samsung goes...

If Robert S. McNamara can say this:
“I don't object to its being called "McNamara's war." I think it is a very important war and I am pleased to be identified with it and do whatever I can to win it.”

Then turn around and say this:
"This century will go down as the bloodiest century in all of human history. We’ll have lost 160 million people, killed by conflict. Is that what we want in the 21st century? ...we have to learn from our mistakes...Vietnam was one of those.”

Then I can certainly flip flop on a stinkin' camera... eh?
 
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