Speed and development test. HP5, FP4, Caffenol-C

[elerion]

Just to mention, I just came across Moersch developers. There's one called "eco", supposedly not harmfull for the enviroment. Well, that seems like exageration, but it probably is less toxic. Don't know compared to xtol. It is based on "1-phenyl-4-methyl-4-hydroxymethyl-3 pyrazolidone".

Thanks for the 1+50 Rodinal advice. Never tried.

What I wanted to do in the first place, was know how to use Caffenol to get a decent curve, for using it as my main developer, then fine tune Rodinal for stand development (1+100, almost no agitation, 60 min). And that would have been it. Didn't want to mess with more developers. But now I doubt that I can use Caffenol for most rolls.

So I'll probably try XTOL, as it is a very common developer (more than Moersch's), and many people seem to use it.

 

[pepeguitarra]

... I assume that the amounts being found in municipal water supplies are insignificant, but one has to ask what exactly IS an insignificant amount of poison in our bodies? ...

... and go to bottled distilled water. It turns out that General Ripper was smart to insist on drinking only distilled water, rainwater, and pure grain alcohol. Crazy as an outhouse rat, but smart.

There are no health standards yet for those (several hundreds of chemicals) The amounts are minuscule only detectable by the surprisingly new technologies that have developed equipment to do that. The truth is that there are more carcinogens in a bottle of beer and in a glass of milk.....😡

Distilled water is not good for drinking (pure H2O), it has been removed of all minerals and is very corrosive. I may take away minerals from you body and kill you. I have no problem with grain alcohol!! 😀

 

[Daryl J.]

Hooray! Biochemistry and pharmacology found on an antique film camera thread.


Our results at Newspace in a nutshell were D-76ish with finer grain and both better contrast and better shadow detail. I'm a noobie when it comes to photochemistry but I thought that was pretty cool. The way Pete had us mix everything up was not unlike organic chemistry lab at university.

I'm sure enjoying this thread. But it makes we wonder if I'll become partly another gender and chemotherapeutically treated from drinking the tap water if I go to Anaheim to visit Mickey Mouse!

 

[pepeguitarra]

. ... But it makes we wonder if I'll become partly another gender and chemotherapeutically treated from drinking the tap water if I go to Anaheim to visit Mickey Mouse!

If you are coming to Anaheim (they use mostly groundwater), you most likely will be drinking GW from the Orange County GW Basin, which is recharged in large part by recycled wastewater from Riverside. There was a study in London about 25 years ago that "discovered" that some fish were changing gender in the River Thames, close to the discharge of the treated sewage. Most "politicians", not scientists mention that article often. However, the truth is the any type of fish changes gender by themselves. How do I know? MY daughter had ONE fish in a tank. After three or four weeks, there were three fish, and she did not put any additional fish. Those were baby fish. Then I found out that some fish lay eggs as females, and change gender to fecundate the eggs. Go figure. You can drink the water safely. No reality show for you. 😱

 

[HHPhoto]

Just to mention, I just came across Moersch developers. There's one called "eco", supposedly not harmfull for the enviroment. Well, that seems like exageration, but it probably is less toxic. Don't know compared to xtol. It is based on "1-phenyl-4-methyl-4-hydroxymethyl-3 pyrazolidone".

That is Dimezon S, a Phenidon derivate.
It is used in lots of developers, and especially in (almost) all low-tox developers which also use Isoascorbate (Vit C).
Dimezon S and Isoascorbate fit very well together.
In Moersch Eco also Isoascorbate is used (and in XTOL also Dimezon S is used).

Cheers, Jan

 

[elerion]

I finally got a nice curve with Caffenol and HP5.

But I had to sacrifice speed, as expected.

EI - 100.
Caffenol C-H.
8' @ 21ºC.
Three inv per minute.

Relevant data:
Contrast index, 0.64
Base+fog, 0.45
Zone I, 0.12
Zone V, 0.69
Zone VIII, 1.45

 

[HHPhoto]

I finally got a nice curve with Caffenol and HP5.

But I had to sacrifice speed, as expected.

EI - 100.
Caffenol C-H.
8' @ 21ºC.
Three inv per minute.

Relevant data:
Contrast index, 0.64
Base+fog, 0.45
Zone I, 0.12
Zone V, 0.69
Zone VIII, 1.45

Zone I and V are good, but 1,45 logD for Zone VIII is too much!
That is the density for Zone IX.
Zone VIII should be in the 1,20 - 1,30 range.

So you have to reduce the development time. And probably also have to reduce the speed even further by 1/3 stop.

Your results don't surprise me at all. I've had similar results with several film - Caffenol combinations. In most cases the real speed was very disappointing and much lower compared to standard developers. And the characteristic curve was bad because of being to steep in the highlights.

Cheers, Jan

 

[elerion]

Sure. But it is close enough.
Sometime ago I shot an HP5+ EI 640, which is quite a big push, and got nice photos. Not something great, but still very usable. Zone VIII was 1.32, but V was 0.36 and zone I just 0.03. So an ideal curve is not always a must.

Also, Rodinal instructions state a developing time table for gamma 0.65 (which is more contrast than the ideal Zone VIII of 1.30, if I'm not missing something)

I just tweeked the FP4+, shot at EI100.
No surprise here either.
Aproximate relevant data:
Contrast index, 0.64
Base+fog, 0.48
Zone I, 0.09
Zone V, 0.56
Zone VIII, 1.38

Here I conclude my test.
Now I'll do some Caffenol stand developing measurements, to see if it gets any better.

I've never done any stand before. Rodinal seems very popular for this. Wander if Caffenol C-L will have that compensating effect, as to mix several ISO and brand films (as many people tend to say, when using Rodinal 1+100 and barely any agitation).

Thanks for all the comment!

 

[Freakscene]

Also, Rodinal instructions state a developing time table for gamma 0.65 (which is more contrast than the ideal Zone VIII of 1.30, if I'm not missing something)

Absolutely: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2624452&postcount=9

Marty

 

[elerion]

I did some Caffenol-C-L stand development test, 45 minutes, with just three invertions after 15 minutes.

Surprisingly, I got almost the exact same curves for HP5 at EI 400, than I got for EI 160 with Caffenol C-H standard development. A nice gain here.
If this is not enough coincidence, I got the same curves for FP4 at EI 125 than I got with standard development at EI 80. Again, even though I still get a bit high zone VIII, I can aim to boxspeed.

Now, many people say that using Rodinal stand, you can mix several EI / ISO, and that they get compensated. But, what kind of curves should I expect? I mean, if one is shot at EI 200, and another one at EI 100, won't EI200's zone V match the density of EI100's zone IV ?

 

[manculi]

I did some Caffenol-C-L stand development test, 45 minutes, with just three invertions after 15 minutes.

I'm not a film geek, nor do I have a densitometer, but I'd try to increase the dev time to 1 hour, about six to ten gentle inventions at start and one gentle inversion at 30'. Too many invertions may be the cause of your too dense highlights (I'm now reading Alsel Adams' The Negative).



Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

 

[Murray Kelly]

The common hair dye mentioned above is PPD (paraphenylenediamine AKA CD#1) and it can be very nasty stuff. Allergy is common and that is one of the main reasons developers for C-41 were switched to CD#4. Staining is another issue with PPD.