Starting B&W film question

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bennybo

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Hey (again),

So I pulled the trigger and have an M6 Classic (chrome) and a 50 mm Summicron coming from Jim Kuehl. Jim was great to deal with by the way.

I want to get some film in preparation for its arrival. From reading the Forum archives all evening, I think the smart thing would be to pick a film and stick with it at the beginning. I'd like a forgiving B&W film that I can eventually develop myself (which I haven't done since Junior High in the late 70s).
1) Kodak Tri-X 400 sound good? HP5?
2) Does 400 speed sound like a good place to start?
3) And while the questions are flowing, is there a classic book or reference on film developing so I can decipher all the info on the Forums about pushing film?
4) Also is there a film that would accentuate the grain (for a certain look) or would that mostly come in developing?

Apologies for all the questions... back to reading the scan of the M6 manual I found on the web. Thanks!
 
If you want to shoot a film that can be developed easily by custom labs, but which you also can develop yourself later, Tri-X or HP5 would be an excellent choice.

On the other hand, if there aren't any custom b&w labs in your area, you'll probably be hard-pressed to find a "volume" lab that can do a good job of developing these; with most volume labs, you wind up paying extra and waiting a long time to get substandard results. If that's your situation, you're probably better off starting out shooting a C-41-process b&w film, which can be developed by almost any lab.

The classic reference on developing film is the little leaflet that used to come in rolls of Tri-X! Failing that, there's tons of information on the Kodak and Ilford websites. I wouldn't start out worrying about push processing, though; just concentrate on learning to get good results at the film's normal speed rating.

Graininess is mostly a characteristic of two things: the type of film you use, and how you get the images out of it. (Developer choice plays a more minor role.) In terms of film choice, a super-speed film such as Kodak T-Max 3200 or Ilford Delta 3200 will give you much larger and more visible grain than Tri-X or HP5; the C-41 films will give less noticeable grain than Tri-X/HP5. In terms of image extraction, scanning silver-based films will yield a grainier-looking image than traditional "wet" printing.

If you still can't get as grainy an image as you'd like, a tried-and-true technique is to compose the image to take up only a small part of the negative area, and then drastically enlarge just that area. Combine this technique with a super-speed film, a film scanner, and a little unsharp masking, and you can make your subject look like a sandstone statue in no time!

Starting out, though, I don't know as I'd worry too much about trying to create this effect, either. I still think it's best to begin by using your chosen film normally, and see what effects it produces; this will give you a reference point for further experimentation later.

Good luck and have fun!

PS -- I used to work with Jim Kuehl occasionally when he was Leica's Midwest professional rep, based out of Des Moines; he once lent me a 135/2.8 Tele-Elmarit so I could photograph Baryshnikov from a non-intrusive distance. Good to know he's still around!
 
Hi,
Good camera, lens choice. 400 ISO is a good starting point. I would recommend getting a bulk loader and sticking with one one film choice for a while. Tri-X and HP5 are great - I have been using Neopan 400 almost exclusively for the past year and I am very happy with the results. Go for the home developing, all the films mentioned are fairly forgiving and simple to develop. As for a book on developing - I started with the spec/info sheets for each film and then checked out a number of different books from the library. Kodak has some basic books on developing and Ilford has a pdf online on beginning developing.
Best of luck, and welcome.
 
Well, as a mildly lame starting point, you can check out my page at:

http://www.kaiyen.com/photos/pages/chemicals.html

I agree that TXT is a great starting point. Incredibly flexible. You want low grain? Use straight D76 or even perceptol. Want high acutance? Use rodinal or diluate D76. Want speed? Microphen or XTOL is you best bet. I shoot it from 250 to 6400 and it works almost every time for me. I even took it as my one and only film to my honeymoon in Paris a few weeks ago.

allan
 
Oh yeah - the photo.net black and white film forum is actually a really good resource, too. Not as advanced as apug, but more advanced than other places.

allan
 
HP5 is an excellent film. But try rating it at 200 to capture some nice shadow detail. For fast film, I shoot Delta 3200 rated at 1600, but it does push well (with a loss of shadow detail). I've also shot Neopan 1600, which is excellent. But I gave up on it as it is not available in 120.
As for developers - I've been happy with D76.
Robert
 
if you cant get your hands on neopan 400 get HP5, if you cant get your hands on that try trix, but thats just my opinion, some would go the other way around
 
Neopan 400 is also good stuff. For more grain, try Neopan 1600.
I tend to like film with less grain such as Acros, FP4+ and Tmax-100, but then you need more light.

/Håkan
 
After splashing out on an M6 and 'cron, is $50 or so for a tank, changing bag and chemistry going to break the bank? That's all you need to start developing film. Tri-x and HP5 are both excellent films but I'd add Ilford DD-X to the list of possible developers as it's a liquid with the properties of Microphen, thus no problem obtaining 400 from HP5 with an M6 meter.

Mark
 
The best advice I've seen here so far is to choose one film and stick with that film until you know it inside out. Shoot it at it's designated speed only. Don't worry about 'pushing' or 'pulling' until you are completely familiar with your chosen film, it will only confuse matters.

Personally I started with Ilford FP4. Nowadays I use four films, Ilford PAN F+ (50ASA), Ilford Delta 100 (100ASA), Ilford FP4+ (125ASA) and Ilford HP5+ (400ASA) and two developers, Rodinal and Ilford DD-X.
 
Welcome aboard. I am just a couple of months "ahead" of you. Also a long time ago that I developed my own film. Bought a changing bag a month ago and it is fun; I had almost forgotten how much. I agree with people advising you to stick with 1 film/developer in the beginning. In the beginning I was trying all kinds of stuff and it was very confusing and the results were not good to say the least.

I now shoot Tri X 400 at 200 and develop in Rodinal and still have to learn a lot, but I am getting there. In the beginning there are so many variables that it is best - I think - to stick to one film developer combination. Once you feel confortable there it is time to branch out and experiment. If you are looking for grain Tri X is a good start.

A good book I can not recommend, but I took a Photography refresher course half a year ago and that in combination with the internet seems sufficient. www.unblinkingeye.com and www.apug.org are good for sometimes very detailed information (the latter can be very technical, but there is a lot of knowledge there). www.digitaltruth.com hosts the Massive development chart and that is a good place to look for different development times/dilutions etc once you have settled on your film/developer combination. www.darkroomsource.net/tech-bw-film.shtml is a good place for a general introduction into developing your own B&W.

Last but not least this one of the most friendly forums and everybody here is willing to share advice/information (I know that from own experience). You just have to ask.

Good luck and have fun.

Peter
 
Benny,
First off welcome, I hope you enjoy your m6 to the fullest. It's a beautiful camera.

You've already got a lot of good answers, some may even be too good. You may be even more confused at all the great things out there to use. The bottom line is that there really is no best combination of films/developers, etc.

You'll get great results from any of the big names, like Ilford, Kodak and Fuji. You'll also get great results from any of the common developers, but some are easier to use than others.

I highly, I mean HIGHLY reccomend getting yourself a good book, as you have expressed interest in doing. I personally really like this book:
http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-0316373052-3

There are other books, and I've read a few of them here and there, but the Horenstein book is really quite good, and comprehensive. He also has a style that is quite disarming, and downright pleasant. The link I provided even shows that it's on sale for $10.98, down from $27...can't beat that with a stick!

I deduce from your words that you are somewhat new to photography, but not completely virginal in your knowledge and perceptions...there are few people in the developed world who have NEVER taken a picture at all..sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not.

I bring that up because the m6 is a different beast...for some people it's so easy to tame, that it becomes part of them almost immediately. For others however, it's a bit of a lion taming task, because it's an intentionally very simple camera...it will do nothing for you, except for tell you how much light there is.

Be very very patient, your first few rolls may suck rotten eggs, or you may be very pleasantly surprised. Some people hit right off, some people take a lot longer. Brings to mind some other virginal activities.

Depending on where you live, and what your availability to good photo labs is (and the size of your wallet) there are several different routes you can go.

Personally, I would reccomend the path of least resistance in the early stages.

If I were you, I would buy a few rolls of C-41 black and white (the stuff that can be processed at any color lab) just to get used to the camera...it will cut down your variables significantly, and it will give you a much quicker feedback cycle than starting photography AND developing at precisely the same instant.

That may be controversial advice, but I honestly know from experience, being largely self-taught, that learning to use a camera, and developing from the beginning can get frustrating, and you may get results that make you despair, for any number of reasons. Take your time, have faith and patience, and in the end, you will progress greatly. As they say, slow and steady wins the race. Furious activity has a habit of burning people out when the results don't keep up.

In addition to your first few rolls of c-41 film, I would suggest reading that book I recommended (today I can not spell!) all the way through, in a leasurely way. Don't try to go out and emulate the experiments, don't try to do the weird and wacky solarization stuff. Just read the book on a quiet evening with a tasty beverage, just to get your feet in the water. The beauty of this book is that it's concise without being terse, and it's easy to read in a short evening.

Then, go back to page one, and teach yourself photography.

A developing tank brand new won't cost you much more than $25. Off of Ebay it will cost you $5-10. A decent thermometer (does NOT have to be marked "photo") will run less than $5, and developer, stop and fixer will run you $25. In the interests of simplicity, just go for one brand or another, you don't need to find the best of each, as many people do. I personally really like Ilford films and chemicals, that's mostly what I use. Kodak will suit you very well also. Just ask the local photo shop for what they suggest. The Horenstein book has excellent, very simple charts on how to develop for how long, and what an "agitation" means.

Once again, have patience...especially if you are alone in this, it can be a steep learning curve for some people, and for others it comes as naturally as breathing. Neither group learns more in the end. I know this from music...the prodigies often burn out very badly, and if they don't, they often lose what anybody would call creativity. If you are not a prodigy, that doesn't mean that you won't become a good photographer in a month, a year, or 10 years. Likewise if you are a prodigy, focus on what photography means to you and to others, and take it somewhere that it carries a message.


As far as films, the others have suggested some excellent stocks. Personally, I started with Delta 100 and 400. I then tried out a lot of other films, but I came back to good old Ilford because I think it is very good. Not to say that there aren't others that are better in certain aspects, I just feel that Ilford suits my needs quite well. One of these days I'm going to spring for a brick of Fuji 1600, another excellent film.

But I digress....400 speed film, for example Ilford Delta 400 is a very very flexible film. Once you learn how to develop, you will learn that you can "push" a film to increase contrast, and to some extent speed. Once you learn how to do that, you will find that Delta 400 can be pushed almost to the sky. 3200 ISO is no big deal, and I've gotten more. Delta, among all the films, is fairly fine grained, but once you get into the 1600 range, it gets a very very nice grain, for those of us that like grain. There is by the way a difference between a good film's grain and a bad film's grain....that's one of the reasons why I like Delta 400 so much. Eventually you will want to print your negatives, and it will make a big difference. Tmax is also excellent of course, etc.

I have rambled on for far too long....any stupidities in my post can be attributed to mis-firing neurons.

Good luck, and have fun!
 
Tri-X and D76 1:1 is a good place to start. I've used others...TMAX, Delta, etc. but always return to good old Tri-X. Lately I've been developing it in TMAX developer for the sake of liquid convenience with pleasing results.
 
hp5 and d76 1:1, rating it around 320-400...i think BW films esp. hp5 and tri-x are pretty forgiving....if you're going to err, err on the side overexposure....i've overexposed 2-3 stops sometimes and have still gotten printable negs...
 
I would recommend any of the above 400ASA films as there are excellent results from them all in the galleries here. If you want to use a silver-based film and get it developed in a lab at the beginning I can also recommend A&I of Los Angeles (aandi.com) who use XTOL as their standard developer. I have sent Fuji Neopan 400 to them and was extremely happy with the results. A&I have detailed mailing instructions on their web site and charge $7/36 exp. roll.

Good luck and welcome to the site too! :)

 
You've had lots of good advice here. I don't think you can go wrong by starting out with an ISO400 B&W film and developing in a developer such as D-76, XTOL, or ID-11. They're pretty foolproof and always give good results.

The suggestion to start with a C-41 film like XP-2 until you get a good feeling for your gear is also good. It simplifies things until you're ready to tackle your own development.

For me, there is nothing quite like traditional B&W film. I wish you well on this journey!

Gene
 
Thanks to all for the great responses.

I'll run a roll or three of BW400CN through it to get a feel for operating and ensure that everything is working OK.

I picked up a few rolls of Tri-X 400 this afternoon and will start out with D76 after I pick up the few needed accessories for film developing. That will be a good way to get going from all I've read here. I can scan for now on my Epson 3200 in order to make contact sheets etc.

I promise to post at least one shot off the first roll or two as thanks.

Ben
 
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