pechelman
resu deretsiger
A recent goal of mine has been to try to simplify my workflow by eliminating the export process into silver efex (sep2) with the DNG's from the 246. While I have a relatively streamlined process that involves about ~5 button clicks, it's still another process, another file, and significant more time involved while waiting for all the exports to happen. In general and for reference, I've been using a similar workflow to what Gary Tyson describes in his "super flat" routine.
I've been attempting to develop a preset in LR that can sort of mimic what I like out of my past sep2 workflow. Sometimes I get close, other times I get images I prefer, even if they're different, but most other times, I seem to struggle with the mid-tone definition and contrast that sep2 is superb at handling. (I'm woking with the desktop version of LR6)
I've had moderate luck using the clarity slider, but really dislike what it can do to an image when pushed too far. However, the leica files generally seem much more tolerant to clarity than on my past fuji camera. Also been using the curves tool of course, but that doesnt quite get me there. I have an idea that the "dehaze" slider might help, but it's not a feature I have available thanks to Adobe's frustrating update ethic on the desktop versus subscription based versions.
Point of this thread, would anyone be willing to share some tips or ideas on my experience or perhaps share theirs in trying to also ditch silver efex? For now, I'm processing images using both to try to "calibrate" my preset, which has been quite the learning process. I feel like I've run into this problem enough now, with generally unsuccessful results, that I should reach out for ideas.
Thanks in advance,
Phil
I've been attempting to develop a preset in LR that can sort of mimic what I like out of my past sep2 workflow. Sometimes I get close, other times I get images I prefer, even if they're different, but most other times, I seem to struggle with the mid-tone definition and contrast that sep2 is superb at handling. (I'm woking with the desktop version of LR6)
I've had moderate luck using the clarity slider, but really dislike what it can do to an image when pushed too far. However, the leica files generally seem much more tolerant to clarity than on my past fuji camera. Also been using the curves tool of course, but that doesnt quite get me there. I have an idea that the "dehaze" slider might help, but it's not a feature I have available thanks to Adobe's frustrating update ethic on the desktop versus subscription based versions.
Point of this thread, would anyone be willing to share some tips or ideas on my experience or perhaps share theirs in trying to also ditch silver efex? For now, I'm processing images using both to try to "calibrate" my preset, which has been quite the learning process. I feel like I've run into this problem enough now, with generally unsuccessful results, that I should reach out for ideas.
Thanks in advance,
Phil
cz23
-
I'll be interested to follow along, Phil. I've tried, but never been able to replicate in Lightroom what I get in Silver Efex. Especially the Amplify Whites and Amplify Blacks, which I often use.
John
John
pechelman
resu deretsiger
Thanks, John. Will try to keep this updated as I go along and if I have any breaking revelations.
And I guess to clarify a bit, while my first line goal is to replicate the sep2 output, I think I'm also to the point where I'm not sure it's completely possible to do so within any version of LR. I'll be happy with a "close enough" especially to save time in processing my casual images that I share with folks on the web. In the end, while I would rather have the "better looking" image, having a consistent look between my shots is a bit higher in priority as is also not spending tons of time on each photo trying to squeeze out that last ~10%.
Still trying to calibrate my eye so I can avoid having to process the image twice.
I think I might have a few examples I can share later tonight when I get home.
edit: and I'll briefly note, I feel like I've had a lot more success with the 246 files matching sep2 with LR adjustments than I have with 240 or fuji files. Not sure exactly, but wondering if it's just from a large reduction in variables within the files. (i.e. color) My next goal would be to develop another preset to make a 240 file match close enough to the sep2 output, or rather, the output I hopefully find and get happy with from the 246 LR Preset.
And I guess to clarify a bit, while my first line goal is to replicate the sep2 output, I think I'm also to the point where I'm not sure it's completely possible to do so within any version of LR. I'll be happy with a "close enough" especially to save time in processing my casual images that I share with folks on the web. In the end, while I would rather have the "better looking" image, having a consistent look between my shots is a bit higher in priority as is also not spending tons of time on each photo trying to squeeze out that last ~10%.
Still trying to calibrate my eye so I can avoid having to process the image twice.
I think I might have a few examples I can share later tonight when I get home.
edit: and I'll briefly note, I feel like I've had a lot more success with the 246 files matching sep2 with LR adjustments than I have with 240 or fuji files. Not sure exactly, but wondering if it's just from a large reduction in variables within the files. (i.e. color) My next goal would be to develop another preset to make a 240 file match close enough to the sep2 output, or rather, the output I hopefully find and get happy with from the 246 LR Preset.
cz23
-
It sure seems like one should be able to duplicate in LR anything done in Silver Efex. After all, they are just gray tone adjustments. And the LR tone curve controls are pretty powerful. Maybe I just don't try hard enough.
I like what you are trying to do. Especially standizing your BW look. I confess that once I'm in Silver Efex, I sometimes can't resist playing preset roulette.
John
I like what you are trying to do. Especially standizing your BW look. I confess that once I'm in Silver Efex, I sometimes can't resist playing preset roulette.
John
Nathan King
Established
I think you're going to need Photoshop's powerful layer and masking tools to replicate Silver Efex, but I could be wrong. I'll be watching with interest at what others have to say.
pechelman
resu deretsiger
On paper, I agree with you about it just being a gray adjustment, but where I think LR might come up short is that I believe sep2 has control to separately control the level and contrast within the shadow, highlight, and midtone ranges of an image. I think that's why I've had some success with the clarity slider and why dehaze might also help.
In the end, I can generally get something my eye finds pleasing on the highlight and shadow areas, but then my midtones sometimes end up a little bit flat or without structure (not sure if that's the appropriate term here). Basically, I can get pretty close on 2 out of the 3, sometimes on all 3, but high dynamic range scenes, has been the real challenge.
I think this article might describe a bit of the things sep2 is doing in the background that I'm having trouble replicating; https://support.google.com/nikcollection/answer/3216473?hl=en
If I have to resort to using photoshop, I may as well just resort to using sep2. I dont think there's anyway I could give up LR at this point.
In the end, I can generally get something my eye finds pleasing on the highlight and shadow areas, but then my midtones sometimes end up a little bit flat or without structure (not sure if that's the appropriate term here). Basically, I can get pretty close on 2 out of the 3, sometimes on all 3, but high dynamic range scenes, has been the real challenge.
I think this article might describe a bit of the things sep2 is doing in the background that I'm having trouble replicating; https://support.google.com/nikcollection/answer/3216473?hl=en
If I have to resort to using photoshop, I may as well just resort to using sep2. I dont think there's anyway I could give up LR at this point.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Just curious, as I've never owned a Leica digital camera: Are there in-camera B&W presets? If so, do they produce good looking images?
I use Fuji cameras. I've played around with Silver Efex quite a bit, but I find that the sep2 images aren't really any more pleasing than those straight out of the camera. Could be just that my 'eye' isn't all that discerning.
I use Fuji cameras. I've played around with Silver Efex quite a bit, but I find that the sep2 images aren't really any more pleasing than those straight out of the camera. Could be just that my 'eye' isn't all that discerning.
pechelman
resu deretsiger
there are, but to be honest, ive never recorded even a single jpg on a leica. I have heard some of the jpg's are nice, but I dont know first hand. Perhaps I should try it one day, but some of it is the same reason I didnt use the fuji monochrome output, and that was to have my digital look like what I used to shoot on film. The other reason being to keep as much info in the 246 file. I suppose I could shoot dng+jpg, but that just doesnt sit right with my efficient nature. (the curse of an engineer)
Not sure I'd classify one output as better than the other, or one being more suited for discerning people, just different. I quite like the fuji jpgs.
Not sure I'd classify one output as better than the other, or one being more suited for discerning people, just different. I quite like the fuji jpgs.
Canyongazer
Canyongazer
This is an interesting thread, Phil.
I have been told that SEFX 2 does more than just "move the sliders around for you" as you might do yourself in LR but no one has demonstrated (to me, at least) how or why it differs.
I readily admit to having seen some excellent results from those using it but still wonder if LR could not duplicate them. I do not know.
Like you, I would rather stay in the uncomplicated workflow that is LR.
Perhaps some SEFX users will enlighten us.
I have been told that SEFX 2 does more than just "move the sliders around for you" as you might do yourself in LR but no one has demonstrated (to me, at least) how or why it differs.
I readily admit to having seen some excellent results from those using it but still wonder if LR could not duplicate them. I do not know.
Like you, I would rather stay in the uncomplicated workflow that is LR.
Perhaps some SEFX users will enlighten us.
pechelman
resu deretsiger
Dug a few images out of my recycle bin that I thought showed what I'm trying to do. Hopefully this doesnt give anyone an epileptic seizure, but thought it was a good way to show the differences. While the highlights and shadows arent exactly perfect, it's pretty clear is that theres some level and contrast tweaking within each range.
Naturally, since this is the internet, cat & dog photos are required
The real giveaways are created by the extra detail that pops out in the wood trim and then the stone.
if the gif's are too distracting I can take them down and replace them with dumb image files. please be honest and let me know. I wont take offense, I promise
Naturally, since this is the internet, cat & dog photos are required
The real giveaways are created by the extra detail that pops out in the wood trim and then the stone.
if the gif's are too distracting I can take them down and replace them with dumb image files. please be honest and let me know. I wont take offense, I promise
Luke_Miller
Established
I can often get the look I want just using LR on my MM files, but some images really need a touch of the Structure tool which SEP2 has but Lightroom lacks. If I wanted a one-stop processor for MM files - Capture One gives me everything I need. But since I rely on the LR catalog I mostly stay with LR and SEP2
cz23
-
For the gif examples above, I would think LR could easily handle that with the clarity slider and maybe some white/black adjustment, and perhaps some local sharpening.
Personally, I think presets can only take you so far. I can't even recall my last image that did not require local adjustments, whether in SEP2 or LR.
My other issue with presets is that their impact varies so much with the lighting and tonal distribution in a particular image. For example, I don't use film emulation, but out of curiousity I recently tried Eric Kim's new Tri-X preset. It looks very good on some images but horrible on others, depending on the characteristics of the particular file.
John
Personally, I think presets can only take you so far. I can't even recall my last image that did not require local adjustments, whether in SEP2 or LR.
My other issue with presets is that their impact varies so much with the lighting and tonal distribution in a particular image. For example, I don't use film emulation, but out of curiousity I recently tried Eric Kim's new Tri-X preset. It looks very good on some images but horrible on others, depending on the characteristics of the particular file.
John
willie_901
Veteran
Anything one can do in LR one can do in Photoshop. The opposite is not true.
Anything one can do in Silver Efex one can do in Photoshop.
The value of Silver Efex is it is much more efficient for most people to render the B&W image they prefer. This is not the case for highly skilled and experienced Photoshop users. Since I detest the seemingly infinite complexity of Photoshop and find its user-hostile, legacy workflow unacceptable, Silver Efex is worth every penny.
For initial renderings I'm now using the monochrome LR Camera Profiles co-developed by Adobe and Fujifilm. I find these to be more than adequate. For printing I start over with Silver Efex Pro.
Anything one can do in Silver Efex one can do in Photoshop.
The value of Silver Efex is it is much more efficient for most people to render the B&W image they prefer. This is not the case for highly skilled and experienced Photoshop users. Since I detest the seemingly infinite complexity of Photoshop and find its user-hostile, legacy workflow unacceptable, Silver Efex is worth every penny.
For initial renderings I'm now using the monochrome LR Camera Profiles co-developed by Adobe and Fujifilm. I find these to be more than adequate. For printing I start over with Silver Efex Pro.
pechelman
resu deretsiger
Thanks for the thoughts guys.
The structure tool is one thing I think would help in addition to those "amplify" settings for whites and blacks. I'm still curious tho if the dehaze slider could help a bit too. I've tried amplifying whites and blacks using the curve tool, but really it just blows out or blocks out large regions when i try to get things to match.
I forget the exact clarity setting I used there, it's been evolving a bit, but I believe it was in the ~35 range. Pushing it higher than about ~50 on the leica files, generally starts to look too obvious in other areas. As a side note, around 20 is where I stop on a fuji file. The black and whites arent exact matches, but theyre close, and that's the goal of the preset, just to get close so I can do small tweaks rather than do all the adjustments so I can have a good stable baseline to work from that will help maintain a similar look across images. That and to save time.
Both examples have the same local adjustments applied to the images. Using local adjustments is an option I can pursue further in LR, but I might almost rather just use the SEP2 workflow if I'm having to do those to try to replicate the global output from that program.
I've definitely used presets in the past that are good in some lighting and bad in others. I believe the VSCO's are usually noted to work best in shade or lower dynamic range scenes. Wouldnt know personally, just what ive heard. Also used some of Eric's presets in the past, for a couple of days, but found most of them too contrasty, digital, or grainy, for my taste.
the last interesting thing I'll note is that the same sep2 workflow i use seems to work almost equally well on any image ive ever taken. If anything, I'll need to make a small tweak on whites or contrast in LR, but that's it. And really, that's my goal, a preset that gets close where I only need to make small tweaks (+/- ~10% on 1-3 sliders for example) without needing a separate SEP2 export.
it does seem to be that I'm hearing some consensus that I might not be able to totally get there in LR
And I feel the same way about photoshop. Would much rather just get over myself and use SEP2 than ever consider using that program for this sort of thing.
The structure tool is one thing I think would help in addition to those "amplify" settings for whites and blacks. I'm still curious tho if the dehaze slider could help a bit too. I've tried amplifying whites and blacks using the curve tool, but really it just blows out or blocks out large regions when i try to get things to match.
I forget the exact clarity setting I used there, it's been evolving a bit, but I believe it was in the ~35 range. Pushing it higher than about ~50 on the leica files, generally starts to look too obvious in other areas. As a side note, around 20 is where I stop on a fuji file. The black and whites arent exact matches, but theyre close, and that's the goal of the preset, just to get close so I can do small tweaks rather than do all the adjustments so I can have a good stable baseline to work from that will help maintain a similar look across images. That and to save time.
Both examples have the same local adjustments applied to the images. Using local adjustments is an option I can pursue further in LR, but I might almost rather just use the SEP2 workflow if I'm having to do those to try to replicate the global output from that program.
I've definitely used presets in the past that are good in some lighting and bad in others. I believe the VSCO's are usually noted to work best in shade or lower dynamic range scenes. Wouldnt know personally, just what ive heard. Also used some of Eric's presets in the past, for a couple of days, but found most of them too contrasty, digital, or grainy, for my taste.
the last interesting thing I'll note is that the same sep2 workflow i use seems to work almost equally well on any image ive ever taken. If anything, I'll need to make a small tweak on whites or contrast in LR, but that's it. And really, that's my goal, a preset that gets close where I only need to make small tweaks (+/- ~10% on 1-3 sliders for example) without needing a separate SEP2 export.
it does seem to be that I'm hearing some consensus that I might not be able to totally get there in LR
And I feel the same way about photoshop. Would much rather just get over myself and use SEP2 than ever consider using that program for this sort of thing.
cz23
-
No way would I go back to PS after all these years of LR. The increase in capability would not offset the ease of LR, at least for me.
Another option you could consider is creating your preset in SEP2 rather than LR. I expect there's a way to set a default preset, so two or three mouse clicks and you're there.
As one more possibility, I believe there is even a way to export an SEP2 preset recipe and import it into LR. Crazy.
rybolt
Well-known
I'm a heavy Nik user for black and white conversions. I also use Thomas Fitzgerald's presets for some things. I find them to be blunt instruments when compared to Nik but they do have their uses and the prices are quite reasonable.
This is the Monolux presets for Lightroom. There is also a suite that he calls Monolith.https://store.thomasfitzgeraldphotography.com/product/monolux-for-lightroom/
This is the Monolux presets for Lightroom. There is also a suite that he calls Monolith.https://store.thomasfitzgeraldphotography.com/product/monolux-for-lightroom/
pechelman
resu deretsiger
So what I do with my SEP2 workflow involves 3 presets, used in this order.
1. Flatten image to reduce contrast and bring all shadows\highlights in
2. Edit in SEP2 and apply my "Phil Preset" which is only applying a film type. Occasionally I'll adjust something manually in here, but 90% of the time I dont.
3. Back in LR, I apply a Post SEP2 preset which adds back in a bit more contrast that's needed from the original image flattening.
That's all I do, save for a few tweaks here or there.
As to your second point, that's what I'd love to find out how to do. Will look into that tonight when I get home.
Thanks, rybolt. Do you also post over on fujix? I think we discussed Ireland a couple years back.
I read Thomas' blog on occasion, will checkout his presets. I've used some of his fuji-centric ones in the past that worked pretty well. Thanks for the suggestion.
user237428934
User deletion pending
If it's important to stay in LR then you can take a look at the VSCO presets that are not cheap but integrate nicely in LR and are more advanced than other LR Presets I have seen.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Phil, if you weren't already aware of it, there are more B&W conversion tools in other NIK family modules that can be used to convert to B&W as well; check out the ColorEfex and AnalogEfex tools.
rybolt
Well-known
Hey pechelman, yes, that is me. Back to Ireland in mid-May for a month.
I use Thomas' Fuji presets,too, though I prefer Pete Bridgwood's for sharpening.