Summicron LTM vs Summar LTM vs Summitar LTM

[jusxusfanatic]

Lots of advice on gear-driven RFF, but nobody asked you what it is you shoot? Portraits, urban landscapes, street, nature? Indoors vs outdoors? Fast modern film with high contrast, or more classic looking film?

Really, it's near impossible to answer your question of 'Should I get X or Y' without knowing what it is you're after.

Heh looks like I forgot to put that in 😅 but I mainly shoot street

 

[Luddite Frank]

These lenses are evolutionary:

Summar > Summitar > Summicron

The f:2 Summar was Leitz's first "fast 50mm lens" (earlier 50mm Hektor f:2,5 not counted for this discussion)

The Summar was considered an improvement over the 50mm f:3,5 Elmar, mostly for its increased speed. It was also a different lens formula.

As color films were introduced in the mid-1930's, it was discovered that the Summar tended to vignette with color film.

The Summitar was an improvement on the Summar, incorporating a larger front element, to help reduce vignetting with color films. The Summar was discontinued, but unsold examples continued to be offered.

By the end of WW II, folks were seeking a better LTM 50mm lens, and the Summicron was developed. The Summitar was discontinued.

The Summicron is still in production, which is some testament to the success of its design.

All pre-war Leitz lenses released for mass sale were uncoated. Some have been coated in afteryears by third parties, or by Leitz.

Most post-war lenses are coated.

All pre-M Leitz lenses have rather soft glass and are easily scratched / cleaning-marked.

Many 1950's and prior Leitz lenses have internal haze from off-gassing of lubricants.

This can be removed by CLA.

Sometimes the edge-blackening of the elements/groups has flaked-off; this can cause loss of contrast due to increased reflections inside the lens barrel. Again, can be corrected by a competent technician.

Stay away from scratched glass.

 

[presspass]

The summar can be an excellent lens but you really should use a hood. The one intended for this lens is a black box with cutouts for the rangefinder and viewfinder. I've also been able to use the adjustable one meant for the 3.5 Elmar. Wide open it can flare a bit, but with black and white film, that adds to the detail in the shadows. No, it's not a summicron, but the cost is much much lower.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

They're all Double Gauss formulas.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Heh looks like I forgot to put that in 😅 but I mainly shoot street

Summar.




Summitar.




Summicron.




With Cron it is easier to deal with contrast filters and copy of Leica hood is available.

 

[jusxusfanatic]

Hmm sounds like the summar is kind of the same as a cron?

 

[mpaniagua]

Ive the 3 of them as well,but cant be much of a judge on the Summar because mine has lots of cleaning marks so it make it soft and not sharp . Of the 3, the Summitar os my most used one. Lovely for portrait and quite handy for street photography (sharp after 5.6). Also, it has this unique soft character that some hate, some love. I, for one, love it.

Regards

Marcelo

 

[Ko.Fe.]

No way Summar is same as Cron.
Most of Summars are uncoated, it is different in initial contrast. Cron is more sharper and does't swirl background.
With Summar you need to watch where sun is. Cron is more flare resistant.
Summar construction is really old. Rare, old filters and hood. With all of it on the lens front it takes its small size. Screws on filters are making nasty marks on the lens metal. No aperture clicks.


Find Leica Lens Compendium text by Puts on-line and read about those lenses. It is most correct description I ever read about Leica lenses differences in rendering.

 

[jusxusfanatic]

Summar.




Summitar.




Summicron.




With Cron it is easier to deal with contrast filters and copy of Leica hood is available.

Nice 🙂 so you would tecommenf the cron I overall? 🙂

 

[jusxusfanatic]

No way Summar is same as Cron.
Most of Summars are uncoated, it is different in initial contrast. Cron is more sharper and does't swirl background.
With Summar you need to watch where sun is. Cron is more flare resistant.
Summar construction is really old. Rare, old filters and hood. With all of it on the lens front it takes its small size. Screws on filters are making nasty marks on the lens metal. No aperture clicks.


Find Leica Lens Compendium text by Puts on-line and read about those lenses. It is most correct description I ever read about Leica lenses differences in rendering.

Thanks for the info!

 

[jusxusfanatic]

Ive the 3 of them as well,but cant be much of a judge on the Summar because mine has lots of cleaning marks so it make it soft and not sharp . Of the 3, the Summitar os my most used one. Lovely for portrait and quite handy for street photography (sharp after 5.6). Also, it has this unique soft character that some hate, some love. I, for one, love it.

Regards

Marcelo

Thanks for your opinion!

 

[jusxusfanatic]

Gonna get the cron in this case. The one I'm gonna get is a but overpriced, 477 US. It's has a but of hairlines and a little bit of dust, which doesn't affect the image

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I have had one or two Summars and just one Summitar and a couple of the USSR made clones of the Summar. All off ebay from people with 100% feedback.

I reckon the best is the Summitar, followed by one* of the Soviet ones and the others are in the also ran and fell at first hurdle list.

As the FED f/2 50mm lens was pre-war you've few problems as I see it with the state it will be in and they are cheap. OTOH, in keeping with my theory that they should be part of an original outfit, I'll wish you luck looking for the pre-war FED with the 1/1000th top shutter speed.

Regards, David

PS (EDIT) It seems you've decided but never mind, I'll leave this as it is.

* Didn't remember where the note about which one I used is and so will have to test all over again, one of these days...

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Thanks. I went Summitar, Summar, Cron v1 and now Cron v2. I wish, I kept Cron V1...
Cron does all what Summar, Summitar does, but on more balanced and advanced level. With Cron V1 I realized for first time, what if lens is with Leica quality, no MF is needed. It isn't as archaic in construction as Summar and it more compact and better build than Summitar.
Some like Summitar size, but to me it was too big for collapsible lens. Biggest and heavier 50 collapsible I ever have.

 

[Luddite Frank]

If you can find a copy of Morgan & Lester's "Leica Manual", circa 1952-1960, you'll get a very good descripton of Leica Lens history and taxonomy, complete with design cut-aways.

If you have a choice between M and LTM mount for a given lens, suggest you go for LTM: you can buy a Leitz LTM>M adapter, and use it on both bodies.

M-mount lenses are not backwards-compatible.

 

[johannielscom]

Hi,

I have had one or two Summars and just one Summitar and a couple of the USSR made clones of the Summar. All off ebay from people with 100% feedback.

I reckon the best is the Summitar, followed by one* of the Soviet ones and the others are in the also ran and fell at first hurdle list.

As the FED f/2 50mm lens was pre-war you've few problems as I see it with the state it will be in and they are cheap. OTOH, in keeping with my theory that they should be part of an original outfit, I'll wish you luck looking for the pre-war FED with the 1/1000th top shutter speed.

Regards, David

PS (EDIT) It seems you've decided but never mind, I'll leave this as it is.

* Didn't remember where the note about which one I used is and so will have to test all over again, one of these days...

The FED 50mm 2.0 is the lens that was supplied with the rare Komandirski camera (FED-1 with 1/1000th top speed) and as such it was not cheap!

FED 50mm 2.0 lenses on their own are rarely seen. On eBay these lenses even without a camera generally fetch quite some more than a Summar and if you've got a source for a cheap FED 50mm 2.0, I'd be highly interested! Preferably with a camera included and under GBP 150 😀 😀 😀

 

[Erik van Straten]

A Summar can be good, when clean and coated. The Summitar has quite a lot of distortion. The Summicron collapsible, clean with a pristine front glass, is a very good lens.
The best 50mm LTM lens in the lower price range is however the VC Color-Skopar 50mm f/2.5.

Erik.

Leica IIIc, Summar 50mm f/2 coated, 400-2TMY.

 

[mpaniagua]

.....Some like Summitar size, but to me it was too big for collapsible lens. Biggest and heavier 50 collapsible I ever have.

But have to agree that it looks quite manly 😛

 

[David Hughes]

The FED 50mm 2.0 is the lens that was supplied with the rare Komandirski camera (FED-1 with 1/1000th top speed) and as such it was not cheap!

FED 50mm 2.0 lenses on their own are rarely seen. On eBay these lenses even without a camera generally fetch quite some more than a Summar and if you've got a source for a cheap FED 50mm 2.0, I'd be highly interested! Preferably with a camera included and under GBP 150 😀 😀 😀

Hi,

Cheap here means compared with a good Summar or Summitar. I've managed it twice, once on it's own and once with the camera...

I guess it's a matter of luck, or something but on my pension, cheap means cheap. Ditto for the 100mm FED.

Regards, David

 

[davidnewtonguitars]

Several months ago when I was flush, I was able to get a Standard, an Elmar 50/3.5 then a Leica iiic.
So am I required to get a dedicated lens for the iiic, and it has to be something else, like a 'cron? Can't I just keep swapping the Elmar, or have I gone too far to turn back?