Sunlight sure aint easy in BW....

[Gary Briggs]

I have it so difficult to get a pic that has moderate tones in sunlight.
I don't like high contrast pics, real bright and real dark areas.
You can always find the exposure for some detail in the dark and light areas, but quite often there's very little detail in either!

What films work better in high contrast shots?
I haven't developed yet, when we move I will. I am sure that would be a big part of solving the high contrast shots.

Just seems like all my keepers come from overcast days...

 

[Moriturii]

Under strong sun, the general practice is to overexpose one stop and underdevelop one stop. Because in a scene with strong sunlight, the contrast levels exceed that of B&W film naturally has, loosely speaking. So you need to lessen that dynamic range by overexposing (shadows become lighter, and has more details, rather than super dark) and underexposing (this will bring highlights back to a "normal" level instead of becoming super duper thick in the negative.)

I have a question for everybody though. I thought of this today.

In a super sunny scene with high dynamic range as me and OP has already stated, if one uses say a RED FILTER, will this bring the dynamic range of the scene back to "normal" as it were? Because the sky isn't going to be SUPER THICK anymore in the neg when you decide to overexpose one stop (or I suppose +3 EV since you're using a RED FILTER as well)? Just a thought, I'd love to know.

 

[135format]

Bright mid day sunshine is a problem. Overcast days are good.
You need precise exposure and development control. However, ultimately your print is only going to give you upto an 8 stop range so if your subject has 10 or 12 stops something has to give. That is why overcast days are good. On average they will only be around 7 stops. So you have your answer, go out and shoot when the light is good which equates to dawn, dusk or overcast.

 

[DominikDUK]

POTA developer if you absolutely must shoot in high contrast situation. But you have to use the entire film in HC situations or you will get flat negs. Pulling the film might help as well. Red filter creates an even stronger contrast so not such a good Idea. Pyro developers like Pyrocat HD or Hypercat seem to handle HC conditions better than normal developers. But the Contrast king still is POTA 15-20 Stops range with low Iso film

Water at 125 F------------300 mL

Sodium Sulfite-------------30 g

Phenidone-----------------1.5 g

Water to make --------------1 Liter Use cold distilled water

Use immediately after mixing as it deteriorates very quickly after it has been mixed.

Good Luck
Dominik

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Normal developing times given by manufacturers are calculated for a shorter brightness range than you get on sunny days. They're more suited to overcast or cloudy days, or working in the shade. For bright days, you need to reduce developing time. Try reducing the time 30% and give one stop more exposure. The film's effective speed drops about a stop when you reduce developing time that much, which is why the extra exposure is needed to keep the dark tones in place. This reduced development will bring the light tones down.

 

[timor]

I have it so difficult to get a pic that has moderate tones in sunlight.
I don't like high contrast pics,
What films work better in high contrast shots?

Maybe you should try two bath developing ? It is good for high contrast situations.
Eastman Double X Negative cinematographic film is low contrast.

 

[Rogier]

Expose on shadows, develop on highlights:

1. Load Tri-X
2. Set your exposure meter on ISO 200
3. Measure shadows
4. Develop as 400

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Expose on shadows, develop on highlights:

1. Load Tri-X
2. Set your exposure meter on ISO 200
3. Measure shadows
4. Develop as 400

That will not reduce contrast, it just makes an overexposed neg that is even harder to print because light tones will be even more blocked up than normal.

 

[zauhar]

This is a helpful discussion.

I recently tried pulling TWO stops, and then reducing development time as recommended by the dev chart. Results for really bright scenes were underwhelming, really washed out. The histogram in PS seemed to have uniform height, from low to high intensity. (On the other hand, dimmer images turned out pretty well.)

After reading the remarks above, I will try again, pulling ONE stop.

Randy


Randy

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

This is a helpful discussion.

I recently tried pulling TWO stops, and then reducing development time as recommended by the dev chart. Results for really bright scenes were underwhelming, really washed out. The histogram in PS seemed to have uniform height, from low to high intensity. (On the other hand, dimmer images turned out pretty well.)

After reading the remarks above, I will try again, pulling ONE stop.

Randy


Randy

Modern films don't do well pulled more than one stop. They tend to get muddy and flat looking, so that increasing contrast in printing (using different paper grades in the darkroom) or in photoshop (on scanned film) tends to make the highlights and shadows blow out while the midtones stay flat and ugly.

Stick to a one-stop pull and then further reduce contrast in photoshop.

 

[HHPhoto]

Understanding the Zone System will make this problem a non-issue.

In flat situations, underexpose and overdevelop.

In normal (?) situations, expose at box speed and develop as recommended.

In contrasty situations, overexpose and underdevelop.


Tonal scale is what you want it to be. It is just a matter of adjusting exposure and development to achieve a desired end.

Yes. Learning the zone system is the way to go and highly recommended.
And the zone system offers such nice tricks like diffuse pre-exposure, which can easily add one stop more contrast range, which is very useful in the situation described by the OP.

And another very succesful and easy method is using a modern camera with a modern flash: With modern fill-in flash technique you can manage even the highest contrast scenes, and get both excellent shadow and highlight detail.
Right done you achieve absolutely natural looking pictures, which are similar to the dynamic range of the human eye.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

Modern films don't do well pulled more than one stop.

I've never experienced this with Delta 100 and TMY-2. No problems at all with a two stop pull.

Cheers, Jan

 

[filmfan]

Use lower-speed films, pull the ISO back, stand-develop on Rodinal.
In the bright Colorado sun, I always tried to shoot Plus-X @50 and develop in Rodinal 1+50 (gentle agitation), or Tri-X @200 developed in Rodinal 1+100 stand. This took care of the exposure range issue for me.
Also, when printing in the darkroom, I prefer to burn the sky than dodge the foreground.

 

[BobYIL]

I have it so difficult to get a pic that has moderate tones in sunlight.
I don't like high contrast pics, real bright and real dark areas.
You can always find the exposure for some detail in the dark and light areas, but quite often there's very little detail in either!

What films work better in high contrast shots?
I haven't developed yet, when we move I will. I am sure that would be a big part of solving the high contrast shots.

Just seems like all my keepers come from overcast days...

First off, films having longer gradation and wider latitude can handle the harsh tonalities, especially the overly bright highlights and deep shadows caused by direct sunlight. Such films have comparatively thicker silver halide layer and cubic grains rather than tabular ones. Your best choices are the classical hi-speed films; HP5+ and Tri-X.

I used to obtain the longest gradation by shooting them @320 or lowest @250 and develop in a soft working developer. For real fine grain ones like Perceptol, Microdol (I used both, could not see any difference) or Spur HRX-3 nominal developing times are fine, however for ISO 250 reduce them 10%. For medium-fine grain developers (I used D76 1:1) by cutting time up to 20% with mild agitation 5sec./min.

I might suggest you to take a look at James Ravilious photographs for some best samples I have seen to control contrast with smooth and long tonalities, even for the shots against sunlight. He was a real master of exhibiting a consistent quality of these qualities. Also a member of our forum rodt16s is worth to mention here for the beautiful tones he was able to maintain thru his pictures.

 

[ChrisN]

Just to add a little in support of those suggesting the OP over-expose and under-develop, or use the zone system. I really like the simple summary given by Gem Singer over on the LargeFormatPhotography forum

Aim the one degree spot at the darkest area in the scene where you still want to see some detail. Close down two stops.

You have just placed the shadow area in Zone III.

That's usually the proper exposure for the scene.

Now, aim the spot at the brightest area in the scene.

If it's a five stop range between the darkest and brightest reading, use normal development.

Less than five, increase development.

More than five, decrease development.

No need to take a whole series of meter readings and average them. That's defeating the purpose.

Just make certain that you have given enough exposure to get some detail in the shadows. Then, develop for the highlights.

That's the Zone System in a nut shell.

Yes, this does require the use of a spot meter, but if you can follow what he's talking about you'll be well on the way to controlling your exposure for bright conditions.

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

here's an interesting article "Exposure for a High-Contrast Scene"

http://retro2.ms11.net/exp.jpg

 

[mday]

here's an interesting article "Exposure for a High-Contrast Scene"

http://retro2.ms11.net/exp.jpg

Thanks for that link.

 

[timor]

Yes, this does require the use of a spot meter, but if you can follow what he's talking about you'll be well on the way to controlling your exposure for bright conditions.

That also require separate development of each negative, so there is a problem with roll film. I agree with the spot meter. As long as one uses camera build in meter, development will be a hit & miss affair. Constant placement of shadow values in zone 3 with highlights falling where they fall gives at least a fighting chance with development. Low contrast developers, minimum of agitation and two bath chemistry are a handy tools in controlling the high values. Also using a short films (like 12 exposures) will help. The chances of mixing sunny day shots with cloudy day shots are lower.
There is also Charly Lemay way:
http://www.charlielemay.net/

 

[bigeye]

I stumbled through this question (and digital b&w vs film) this time last year in a practical exercise posted in this thread discussing zone in high and mid contrast conditions.

-Charlie

 

[mathomas]

I do the overexpose/underdevelop thing quite often, being in CO where bright sun is really bright. I reduce development 20% per stop. That is, if overexposing by two stops, decrease development time by 20%, and then by 20% again (not by 40%!).

BTW, 80% of the time I do incident metering, and the other 20% sunny-16.

+1 stop:

100 strangers: jerry (26/100) by mike thomas, on Flickr

+2 stops:

100 strangers: bob (4/100) by mike thomas, on Flickr