dannysheff
Member
can camera and lens makers survive the huge price increases in their biggest market??
tariffs
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boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Good question. I do not think that trade wars have been good for trade in the past. I suspect it will not be good for trade this time either.
santino
FSU gear head
Definitely Leica. The rest is shrinking anyways so who knows…
lynnb
Veteran
In recent years US camera stores seem to be diminishing in number from what I’ve read - if the remaining ones have to put prices up that’s not good news for them, either. I would think smaller camera stores would have less wiggle room to remain afloat than the big ones like BH and Adorama. Does that sound about right?
Harry the K
Well-known
In Europe it seems we have a post-Brexit sharpening of tariffs. Got a 40Euro lensboard from Intrepid/UK yesterday. In addition the German customs charged me 17 Euro. Bummer! The last two orders were custom-free.
p.giannakis
Pan Giannakis
The way things work are far too complex for me to understand but I wouldn't be surprised if the EU/China/Japan/UK reach a trade deal to expand their markets with lower tariffs. When faced with existential theats, I am pretty sure they can compromise.
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
I feel sorry for all the Americans in here; tariffs are like squaring up to someone and then punching yourself in the face.
The markets have had a bit of a shock this morning, but as @p.giannakis pointed out, the rest of us will all get on fine. It's only the US that's going to have a rough time with this one.
For a historical example of how well these things play out, I refer you to the Corn Laws, a series of tariffs the British government enacted between 1815 and 1846. Same idea:
The result? Starvation and famine; the Corn Laws are part of what made the Great Famine of Ireland so harmful, for instance.
The markets have had a bit of a shock this morning, but as @p.giannakis pointed out, the rest of us will all get on fine. It's only the US that's going to have a rough time with this one.
For a historical example of how well these things play out, I refer you to the Corn Laws, a series of tariffs the British government enacted between 1815 and 1846. Same idea:
The result? Starvation and famine; the Corn Laws are part of what made the Great Famine of Ireland so harmful, for instance.
Sonnar Brian
Established
They are called reciprocal for a reason. I buy something from overseas, it gets here without me having to pay customs fees on it.
Someone in Europe sends me a lens or camera to work on, I return it with the original customs form, and THEY have to pay customs fees to get property that they already own returned to them. This was routine. The worst- the company that MADE the lens would have to pay customs to accept the lens under a warranty repair. They "could" follow-up with paperwork to try to get a refund. Good luck with that, I fixed the lens for them. And of course if they buy something from me, they pay customs. I have had items returned from Europe that an Ebay'r bought because the customs fees were so high. Of course, I had to "eat" the two-way shipping cost.
My wife sent a $200 Christmas Gift to a friend in Canada. The items were returned last week because the Canadians wanted $100 in customs fees to deliver the gift to the recipient.
SO- want free trade, make it free both ways.
Will camera stores survive- most that I know of make their money selling used equipment.
Someone in Europe sends me a lens or camera to work on, I return it with the original customs form, and THEY have to pay customs fees to get property that they already own returned to them. This was routine. The worst- the company that MADE the lens would have to pay customs to accept the lens under a warranty repair. They "could" follow-up with paperwork to try to get a refund. Good luck with that, I fixed the lens for them. And of course if they buy something from me, they pay customs. I have had items returned from Europe that an Ebay'r bought because the customs fees were so high. Of course, I had to "eat" the two-way shipping cost.
My wife sent a $200 Christmas Gift to a friend in Canada. The items were returned last week because the Canadians wanted $100 in customs fees to deliver the gift to the recipient.
SO- want free trade, make it free both ways.
Will camera stores survive- most that I know of make their money selling used equipment.
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p.giannakis
Pan Giannakis
Again, I might be wrong but from what I read so far, it is not reciprocal the way everyone understands it. US tariffs are based on the idea that American products are charged extra but in this the US government counts things like the local VAT rates and also the local dollar exchange rates. Strictly speaking, these have nothing to do with tariffs.
Let's see where all this thing is going to take us 😒
Sonnar Brian
Established
Pony in there somewhere...
Film is made in the USA.
Film is made in the USA.
Sonnar Brian
Established
Value Added Taxes are on anything coming into the EU from outside of it. The net effect is the same as a Tariff. I know of a company that relocated to Scotland to avoid VAT on items sold to the EU, after BREXIT.
Call it anything you want, it is income derived from goods coming into the EU from outside of it. Countries within the EU do not pay it. States in the US do not pay Tariffs on items coming in from other States.
bullterrier
Established
Good question😎
Dont you think tariffs kinda double standard,punich each other like that 😗
Dont you think tariffs kinda double standard,punich each other like that 😗
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
No, this isn't quite correct. Conflating VAT and tariffs is misdirection and/or a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're talking about. VAT is sales tax, and everything within the UK and EU is subject to it, regardless of source of origin.
The way VAT works is that it's paid/collected at the point of sale. In short, any product you buy as an end consumer within the UK or EU has VAT incorporated within the ticket price.
When something is imported, VAT is charged as if it was a product sold within the country. But if a German buys a camera from France, the VAT has already been paid - in France - so it doesn't need to be charged again.
Post-Brexit, things have gotten a little weird with UK-EU trade due to this. If a German buys the same camera from the UK, they could find themselves paying VAT twice - once in England, and once in Germany. This is obviously excessive, so the correct procedure is for the UK seller to declare the VAT as being paid in the UK in the customs documents. This then means the EU doesn't charge the recipient for the VAT when it arrives in Germany. The UK seller then pays the VAT to the EU instead of the UK Government.
The equivalent to tariffs - at least here in the UK - is actually the duty levied on items coming into the country. That is determined by product category, not point of origin (play around with the tool here to have a look: UK Integrated Online Tariff: Look up commodity codes, duty and VAT rates - GOV.UK). A lot of categories are duty-free, no matter the point of origin. We also have free trade deals with a lot of countries, ensuring zero duty on all products coming into the country. But VAT still has to be charged to an end consumer, just like a product sold within the UK by a UK-based company to a UK customer.
valdas
Veteran
That is wrong - any locally (within EU) produced item or service is subject to the same VAT as an imported item, so local manufacturers do not gain any competitive advantage from import VAT. It’s like calling US Sales Tax a tariff.
lynnb
Veteran
See Thom Hogan’s take on the effects of tariffs to US customers.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Interesting. I have bought Canadian goods in the past, tea from Murchies of BC and gear from McGill, with no additional charge. But not in the last month. And I think I have enough tea to last me for some time. But it is pretty obvious that less of a product will be sold at the higher price.
Brexit is a recent example of receiving additional burden on prices. It did not create an economic boom. Likewise Smoot-Hawley. People who understand trade and investment are selling rapidly on the NYSE today and around the world. And the shock will be felt downstream.
My opinion, unsolicited, is that we are watching the Dunning-Kruger Effect play out.
oldhaven
Well-known
I wonder whether this will cause used equipment bought from sites overseas to be tariffed? This could really hurt Japanese, Chinese, Ukrainian, etc. used photo equipment sellers if so. I have never paid a duty or customs charge for what I bought offshore. (Admittedly I don't buy expensive items). If I had to, I would probably not buy that way because of the extra expense and the hassle of going somewhere to pick up the item and pay customs duty.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Price scarcity of new will cause price scarcity of used. The used market will get more expensive and then add the import tax which is what a tariff is. There seems no anticipation of lower prices by those who trade stocks and work in the investment world. They did not make their money by guessing wrong.
p.giannakis
Pan Giannakis
The mods have discussed and decided to close all threads regarding tariffs. This is entirely due to the fact that these threads will inevitably turn political, and we just don't have the time to moderate out problematic posts. If we had 20 mods we would approach this differently. 🙂 Thanks to all for your understanding!
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