The Great Digital Swindle...

Free market capitalism never exists because there is always someone trying to use the governmental structures to get one over on their competitors and lock out new ones. The USA, despite the myth, never had laissez-faire, it was always and ebb and flow of who was favored by those in power at the time.
That's why I said "doctrinaire" free market capitalism. You're absolutely right: a true free market very rarely exists anywhere in anything, and where it does, it seldom lasts long. There is also a long list of things in which it should not exist (politics, qualifications, legal verdicts...) But this is assiduously ignored or denied, and history is rewritten (as you say) by doctrinaire monetarists and those who call themselves free marketeers.

Cheers,

R.
 
What do you mean by "system"? What (capitalist) system delivers the highest standard of living? Probably (authoritarian, statist) Singapore. What (capitalist) system delivers the most general contentment along with a very high standard of equality? Scandinavian mixed economies with their high taxes. What (capitalist) system delivers the most inequality and divisiveness in already-rich countries? Clue: it's the same system that gives the lowest rates of growth (read Ha-Joon Chang's books): doctrinaire free-market capitalism.

You can believe propaganda, or you can look at the figures. Ha-Joon Chang does the latter. He's a lecturer in economics at Cambridge, so he's not exactly stupid. Unlike some economists.

Cheers,

R.


Numbers aren't really as easy as all that. Teasing out just what numbers mean and what relation they bear to the question we ask is not just a non-trivial problem, it's in many ways a fundamentally insoluable problem. Especially when we ask questions like the ones you're asking -- what system is best. Because we live in one world at one time and nothing exists in isolationg. Sweden is what it is in a particular context and that context is one in which China is what it is and Signapore is what it is and the United States is what it is. And if the United States weren't what it is or China weren't what it is, then Sweden wouldn't be what it is either. When we talk about what system is best we're talking about a counter-factual hypothetical -- one in which one nation stops being what it is and starts being something else. And we can look to numbers (which are statements about things as they are, not about things as they aren't) as a help -- maybe the best help -- but they are not really facts in the context of the problem we're presented with. They're guesses. And there are lots of people who are every bit as good with numbers who are closer to what you'd call doctrinaire free market capitalists -- I hate attaching such glib characterizations to people who have incredibly sophisiticated understandings but I'd say that Eugene Fama or Robert Mundell or Vernon Smith or Myron Scholes or Thomas Sargent are all examples of people who have been highly fluent with numbers and have produced work that, on the whole, suggests that a heavier reliance on markets would maybe be clever (don't want to mislead here -- none of them worked with the sort of comparisons we're talking about but all of them produced results that would make a reasonable person skeptical about the answers you're hinting at). And lots of people who also have incredibly sophisticated understandings but don't use numbers much have also made highly persuasive cases that heavier reliance on markets might be clever (Alchian for example, or Coase)
 
We've bought many of the same cameras it sounds like, but use them differently. I had an M8. I liked it. But much about it frustrated me.

...

But can the advertising -- the packaging and presentation of information create some desire in people that, say, a couple of months of experience using a particular camera would not also create? I doubt it. The whole notion that marketing hype creates demand strikes me as nothing more than marketing hype for marketers. Outside the fashion industry I don't believe it happens.

Much frustrated me about the X-Pro1 as well; mostly all of the 'features' that Fuji programmed in to leave out the fundamental operational controls... like focusing manually through the OVF. Dialling up the ISO is nice, but in many situations can be adjusted for by using larger aperture glass, or longer exposures. Yes, I'll concede that there are times when dialling up the ISO is the only answer, but they don't happen often. In the old days, we just pushed film farther and accepted a really grainy image... and were grateful for that. I don't see noise to be the great problem that some do, I guess. Focus, OTOH, must be achieved on every frame, and the X-Pro1's CDAF just isn't very good at anticipating how I wanted it to focus.

Again, though, my challenge that if the end result is the image... can you really tell the difference between your M8 images and your X-Pro1 images?

As far as your denial of "marketing hype sells," how exactly then does one explain how 9 million iPhone 5s/5c phones were sold in the first week? Do they really make calls better than the iPhone 4s or 5? The only reason I sold my 3gs last month for a 4s was because iOS 7 wasn't released for the 3gs. I'd have kept my 3gs until the battery failed (and it was still going strong) if I could have continued to upgrade the OS for it. Fortunately for me, someone who was influenced to buy the latest and greatest by marketing hype allowed me to buy a 4s on the cheap.

And what compels people to buy Leica p&s cameras at two or three times the cost of the Panasonic version when the Panny version is just as competent with the same lens? I think those are two pretty sound examples of the advertising hype selling the brand rather than the item as we were discussing earlier in the thread.
 
Again, though, my challenge that if the end result is the image... can you really tell the difference between your M8 images and your X-Pro1 images?.

I think I could at time... since I've used them both extensively and I feel the colors from each are different enough to be telling in certain scenarios. However, does it matter which one was used if the photo is successful? Of course not. 🙂
 
That's why I said "doctrinaire" free market capitalism. You're absolutely right: a true free market very rarely exists anywhere in anything, and where it does, it seldom lasts long. There is also a long list of things in which it should not exist (politics, qualifications, legal verdicts...) But this is assiduously ignored or denied, and history is rewritten (as you say) by doctrinaire monetarists and those who call themselves free marketeers.

Cheers,

R.

... Rome between the death of Tarquin and Julius or Octavian perhaps? ... I only spotted the adverb after I had typed that
 
Started with D200, then got a D40 as a trip backup. The 40 is remarkably good at 6 MP.

D700, D3, came next and there are improvements that show >8x10".

Current fav is a D800 at 36 mp that makes prints that rival 6x7 medium format, probably close to 4x5.

I can say there has been significant progress and it shows in larger prints. For 8x10, take your pick of of any at base iso. for higher iso, then a better camera shows faster.
 
Like all swindles, isn't it only a swindle if you allow youtself to be swindled?

Gils answer on page one sums it up quite well for me in terms of paying for new stuff before its truly obsolete; if you can afford it and want it its not a swindle. If you can't but you buy it anyway...perhaps you've allowed yourself to be swindled.

Personally, and certainly as I get older (no offence intended Roger) I'm with Roger.

Unless you've been deceived, is it a swindle?
 
Like all swindles, isn't it only a swindle if you allow youtself to be swindled?

Gils answer on page one sums it up quite well for me in terms of paying for new stuff before its truly obsolete; if you can afford it and want it its not a swindle. If you can't but you buy it anyway...perhaps you've allowed yourself to be swindled.

Personally, and certainly as I get older (no offence intended Roger) I'm with Roger.

Unless you've been deceived, is it a swindle?


Deception is hardly the issue. We are (generally) set an example of consumerism from a very early age and we just follow the lead given by our peers.

We don't actually need to be deceived ... we've been programmed to obey! 😀
 
I think I could at time... since I've used them both extensively and I feel the colors from each are different enough to be telling in certain scenarios. However, does it matter which one was used if the photo is successful? Of course not. 🙂

My point exactly... a photo is successful because you know how to use the equipment you have, not because of the equipment itself. And when you examine the consumerism/advertising in the photo world in that light, your perspective on that advertising should change.

There are some very good reasons to buy equipment; for example if it meets a need that you can't meet in another way, or something is just plain worn out. Or a system meets your shooting style or a genre of images better. I just bought an R8 body with two zooms 'cause they were cheap and I wanted to play with them. Sometimes that alone is reason enough. I just can't however, buy into the "run faster, jump higher" Keds-style advertising hype we see of camera systems today.
 
The "hype" is just modern marketing. It's not a swindle, it's the same horsepucky that people have been doing for a hundred years or more. There are just more ways for it to hit your senses now.

I ignore it. You should too. Buy equipment when you feel like it, when you want to or when you need to.

Of course, if you're enlightened like RH and far above everyone else, you can look down your nose and say, "Tut tut, that's not good form." Good form or not, it's not a swindle.

G
 
Much frustrated me about the X-Pro1 as well; mostly all of the 'features' that Fuji programmed in to leave out the fundamental operational controls... like focusing manually through the OVF. Dialling up the ISO is nice, but in many situations can be adjusted for by using larger aperture glass, or longer exposures. Yes, I'll concede that there are times when dialling up the ISO is the only answer, but they don't happen often. In the old days, we just pushed film farther and accepted a really grainy image... and were grateful for that. I don't see noise to be the great problem that some do, I guess. Focus, OTOH, must be achieved on every frame, and the X-Pro1's CDAF just isn't very good at anticipating how I wanted it to focus.

Again, though, my challenge that if the end result is the image... can you really tell the difference between your M8 images and your X-Pro1 images?

As far as your denial of "marketing hype sells," how exactly then does one explain how 9 million iPhone 5s/5c phones were sold in the first week? Do they really make calls better than the iPhone 4s or 5? The only reason I sold my 3gs last month for a 4s was because iOS 7 wasn't released for the 3gs. I'd have kept my 3gs until the battery failed (and it was still going strong) if I could have continued to upgrade the OS for it. Fortunately for me, someone who was influenced to buy the latest and greatest by marketing hype allowed me to buy a 4s on the cheap.

And what compels people to buy Leica p&s cameras at two or three times the cost of the Panasonic version when the Panny version is just as competent with the same lens? I think those are two pretty sound examples of the advertising hype selling the brand rather than the item as we were discussing earlier in the thread.

I think the question is broader than whether images can be distinguished -- in some cases it's whether images can be made at all. As to whether they can be distinguished -- in broad daylight the M8 is very good. Entirely satisfactory as far as I'm concerned. But for many of the pictures I take it just isn't. And I couldn't get it to work at all at altitude in winter.

As far as iPhones -- you know, 9 million is a big number in some ways. But in terms of the global cell phone market. It really isn't that big. Neither is the 90million or so iPhones sold per year. It's a lot sure but is it the sort of number that is inexplicable unless people are slaves to marketing campaigns? No. It's a big world we live in.

As far as why people buy Leica point and shoot cameras instead of Panasonics? Again -- it's a big world. And a world that quite certainly does include a lot of people whose choices are not very cost-constrained. The money simply doesn't matter to some people and so they make choices based on things that you or I might think trivial (including association with a brand or the appearance of the camera -- the Leica modes are often just prettier).
 
Deception is hardly the issue. We are (generally) set an example of consumerism from a very early age and we just follow the lead given by our peers.

We don't actually need to be deceived ... we've been programmed to obey! 😀

I think this is pretty close to the truth. When we buy our new shiny toys, we've not really been led to believe anything that isn't true. We've simply allowed ourselves to be indoctrinated to believe that newer is better, higher numbers are better, and owning old/outdated stuff somehow reflects badly upon us.

Companies have not lied to us (generally), they just know they can get people to buy stuff by pushing a few (metaphorical) buttons.
 
I think that the most insidious aspect of consumerism is the willingness of people to offer up their own identity for the sake of it.

They become Nikon users , Leica users or early adopters.
This new identity becomes so fixed that often all critical judgement is suspended.
 
Numbers aren't really as easy as all that. Teasing out just what numbers mean and what relation they bear to the question we ask is not just a non-trivial problem, it's in many ways a fundamentally insoluable problem. Especially when we ask questions like the ones you're asking -- what system is best. Because we live in one world at one time and nothing exists in isolationg. Sweden is what it is in a particular context and that context is one in which China is what it is and Signapore is what it is and the United States is what it is. And if the United States weren't what it is or China weren't what it is, then Sweden wouldn't be what it is either. When we talk about what system is best we're talking about a counter-factual hypothetical -- one in which one nation stops being what it is and starts being something else. And we can look to numbers (which are statements about things as they are, not about things as they aren't) as a help -- maybe the best help -- but they are not really facts in the context of the problem we're presented with. They're guesses. And there are lots of people who are every bit as good with numbers who are closer to what you'd call doctrinaire free market capitalists -- I hate attaching such glib characterizations to people who have incredibly sophisiticated understandings but I'd say that Eugene Fama or Robert Mundell or Vernon Smith or Myron Scholes or Thomas Sargent are all examples of people who have been highly fluent with numbers and have produced work that, on the whole, suggests that a heavier reliance on markets would maybe be clever (don't want to mislead here -- none of them worked with the sort of comparisons we're talking about but all of them produced results that would make a reasonable person skeptical about the answers you're hinting at). And lots of people who also have incredibly sophisticated understandings but don't use numbers much have also made highly persuasive cases that heavier reliance on markets might be clever (Alchian for example, or Coase)
You are of course absolutely right about about relying on numbers, but I would argue that there is a big difference between constructing extremely detailed and deeply flawed fantasies -- Myron Scholes being a prize example -- and looking at broad historical correlations as Chang does (trade "liberalization" and growth of GDP, plus use of protectionism). Black-Scholes/LTCM was so utterly destroyed by "black swans" (Taleb's phrase, of course), that any reasonable person would laugh out loud at the idea Scholes and his hyper-mathematical pseudo-scientific ilk remain in any way persuasive.

You are also absolutely right that economics is fundamentally political, and a product of regional history and geography. This is where I have an enormous problem with those who pretend that economics is in any way a science or (worse still) that it is objective and independent of politics.

Once again, the discussion focuses on the nature of the good life, and for me, Thatcher's infamous comment about "there is no such thing as society" sums up the flaws in the version of the good life sold for the last 30 years or so. It is all very well to talk about the "creative destruction" of capitalism, but the trick is to look at the debris: at the lives broken (in particular) by a "flexible job market".

Most sane people would, I firmly believe, cheerfully reduce the speed at which they are expected to replace their consumer goods (which brings us back to the OP's point about digital cameras) in return for increased job security. Leisure time is something of a red herring as compared with job security: it is at best a proxy for it in some arguments.

Cheers,

R.
 
Deception is hardly the issue. We are (generally) set an example of consumerism from a very early age and we just follow the lead given by our peers.

We don't actually need to be deceived ... we've been programmed to obey! 😀

Keith, I beg to disagree! The programming is the deception. It is the post-war great deceipt; do you need someting or want something?

In 'improving our lot' we have, with each succesive generation, hardened the deceipt into the very life blood of 'Western Capitalism' which we then have peddled to the rest of the world and they too are clamouring to be 'deceived'
 
I think this is pretty close to the truth. When we buy our new shiny toys, we've not really been led to believe anything that isn't true. We've simply allowed ourselves to be indoctrinated to believe that newer is better, higher numbers are better, and owning old/outdated stuff somehow reflects badly upon us.

Companies have not lied to us (generally), they just know they can get people to buy stuff by pushing a few (metaphorical) buttons.

Maybe not in Oz but here in the UK that is exactly what the financial sector has been doing ... miss-selling products they knew to be inappropriate, complicating their product beyond the understanding of their customers and stealthily auto-renewing agreements to their advantage.

Does the same thing happen with the Camera Corporations? are they run by the same type of manager? are they under the same pressure to make more profit each year? ... and as the Camera Corporations don't have anything like the regulations the banks have how could we possibly know?

Not wishing to come over all William Morris, I like quality and I quit like old stuff too
 
I think that the most insidious aspect of consumerism is the willingness of people to offer up their own identity for the sake of it.

They become Nikon users , Leica users or early adopters.
This new identity becomes so fixed that often all critical judgement is suspended.
All very true -- as is Keith's point about programming -- but equally insidious is the attitude of some people who, unwilling or unable to think very hard about what we (they) do, and why, simply attack those who suggest that things could be otherwise. It's a sort of reverse intellectual snobbery.

There is clearly an enormous difference between an economy where scarce needs compete and an economy where a superabundance of wants must be sold via advertising. As J.K. Galbraith pointed out, if a man is hungry, you do not need to persuade him to buy bread; but the choice between a new razor and a new toaster, each being a discretionary purchase, is a matter of persuasion. And of course, when everyone has one television, and cannot yet be persuaded that it is obsolete, the obvious thing is to try to sell them a second television (and a third).

Hunger (as distinct from starvation) existed for many below the middle class, even in rich countries, until well into the 20th century: Robert Roberts's The Classic Slum is a brilliantly written account of poverty in Salford in the first quarter of the 20th century. It is hardly realistic, therefore, to pretend that advertising and consumerism have not changed fundamentally in rich countries in 100 years.

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, consumerism on the present scale is simply unsustainable. This is why I raised the point of antiques in an earlier post. As population increases, yes, more goods must be manufactured. Some will fall from favour: this is why we can (if we wish) buy once-expensive film cameras cheaply. Things wear out: moth and rust doth corrupt. But replacing or accumulating stuff, constantly, because "Duh, it's new and we want it and we can afford it" smacks of "Why should we care about posterity? What has posterity ever done for us?"

To return very strictly to the question of new cameras, a couple of days ago, I got an M for review. It does several things my M9 doesn't. IF I were in the market for a digital M, and IF money were less of a concern, I don't know whether I'd go for an M or an ME. But (on limited acquaintance) I don't think I'd replace my M9 with an M, simply to have something newer and to gain a few more megapixels and live view (I can easily live without video).

Likewise, there was about a 20-year gap between my M4-P and my MP, simply because the M6, M6ttl and M7 did not offer me enough advantage to spend the money: a new Leica was not a need, but a want. At least one camera, on the other hand, was a need, given what I do for a living, and I might as well use the tools I'm happiest with, hence Leicas. A digital Leica, on the other hand, was a need by the time the M8 came out: anyone who writes on photography was increasingly handicapped by the lack of a digital camera he liked using, and that fitted into his existing systems.

Cheers,

R.
 
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but equally insidious is the attitude of some people who, unwilling or unable to think very hard about what we (they) do, and why, simply attack those who suggest that things could be otherwise. It's a sort of reverse intellectual snobbery..

Perhaps more insidious still is the trivialisation of discussion ... e.g. along the lines of "hahaha I love my GAS! 🙂🙂🙂 Don't worry about it!!🙂🙂".
Practiced consistently, it can soon derail any useful dialogue.
(This persistent trivialisation - even of overtly non-political discussions about the practice of photography itself - has finally triggered me to abandon another forum where I have been posting regularly for years)

I wonder about how both the ad hominen and trivialising responses might be driven by not only unwillingness or inability, but fear: What if my unexamined motives for consuming turn out to be be completely unjustifiable to myself?

Or perhaps thinking has just become very unfashionable?
 
Perhaps more insidious still is the trivialisation of discussion ... e.g. along the lines of "hahaha I love my GAS! 🙂🙂🙂 Don't worry about it!!🙂🙂".
Practiced consistently, it can soon derail any useful dialogue.
(This persistent trivialisation - even of overtly non-political discussions about the practice of photography itself - has finally triggered me to abandon another forum where I have been posting regularly for years)

I wonder about how both the ad hominen and trivialising responses might be driven by not only unwillingness or inability, but fear: What if my unexamined motives for consuming turn out to be be completely unjustifiable to myself?

Or perhaps thinking has just become very unfashionable?
I actually laughed out loud at this one, with the sheer joy of recognizing the accuracy of your analysis. Thanks!

Cheers,

R.
 
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