The high prices of poor equipment.

[tunalegs]

It used to be that camera equipment suffering from any blemish or operative flaw was worth only a small fraction of equipment in perfect condition. Exceptions being made for items which were highly specialized, very old, or very - very rare.

Since ebay and online market places have come along, I've noticed a trend where less than perfect items are now being listed for prices very nearly the equal of prices of equipment in excellent or mint condition. Even items which are not basically functional are selling (or at least asking) for prices close to that of perfectly functional items.

Are buyers just more clueless? More desperate? Are sellers more reliant on offloading junk on unsuspecting or uneducated suckers? Maybe people just have more money to waste?

My old theory was that most of these unreasonably high prices were the result of uneducated sellers selling to equally uneducated buyers. People who bought a camera at an estate sale and thought it was worth as much as a mint one because they looked up the brand or model on ebay. But I see a lot of these prices come from businesses - selling items any respectable shop wouldn't think of putting on the shelf - and for prices far in excess of what any reasonable/honest business would ask if they did.

This development is all the more interesting because items which used to be very difficult to find through shops or at camera shows and thus commanded high prices despite mediocre or poor condition - are not rare at all online.

I've noticed this effect occur with other materials too, but since this is a photography forum I'm just talking about camera stuff here. I suspect it has something to do with some sort of interaction between online market places and online communities - and lessened contact between buyers and traditional marketplaces. But I don't really know. Does anybody have any theories?

 

[zuiko85]

".....listed for prices very near the equal of equipment in excellent or mint condition"

Listed or sold. One can ask whatever price they think the market will support. They may guess wrong and not sell the item or sell for less than they wanted.

Realistic prices seem to be featured in the ads listed on RFF, at least most of them.

 

[Pioneer]

I don't really think this is unique to ebay, though it is perhaps more visible as ebay has become such a huge marketplace. Most pawn shops are traditionally high priced if they think there is a chance that what they are selling may be valuable. And auctions have always carried the risk of over bidding something that had little worth.

However, I have noticed this trend to price up items on ebay seems to have followed a couple trends. First, as ebay has moved from a true auction site to more of a fleabay, pawn shop mentality then prices in general went up. There were fewer private sellers and more ebay businesses. Second, prices continued to rise as ebay was forced to introduce more protections for buyers. This in turn increased the cost to the seller so prices naturally increased.

As for classifying things as junk, I think that is a bit subjective. Remember, one man's junk is another man's treasure. On line marketplaces like ebay have been successful in bringing a lot of people together, which I think naturally increases the value of things.

 

[ulrich.von.lich]

I think the problem also comes from the fact that dreaming is free.

A remedy would be to set a price (small penalty) for fixed price listings so sellers don't list for fun but for sale. Also, reducing sale commission fees would invite more sellers to sell and as such, to better define the price.

But from eBay's perspective, none of them would make sense.

And eBay is often used as the benchmark, unfortunately.

 

[kxl]

I don't really think this is unique to ebay, though it is perhaps more visible as ebay has become such a huge marketplace. Most pawn shops are traditionally high priced if they think there is a chance that what they are selling may be valuable.

To add to this, I would guess that most people who buy camera gear on ebay have, in some manner, been influenced by online forums wrt to one type of gear or another, but are unable to find it locally.

Example: for macro shooters, there seems to be a special kind of reverence reserved for the Kiron 105/2.8 (AKA Lester Dine). That lens is inevitably brought up in macro lens discussions, but it has long been discontinued and is nearly impossible to find locally, especially in the Nikon F mount. Now, if we consider dozens or hundreds (or more) of macro shooters looking for that lens in the Nikon F mount, but cannot find it locally, sooner or later they will converge on ebay. And inevitably, someone will decide that it is worth paying a premium on a less than perfect lens just to be able to start using this lens. And inevitably, people who already own this lens will start asking for that same price. Then when ebay gets flooded with it, the price eventually gets normalized.

As an aside, I do have this lens, and the reverence is justified. 😉

 

[bobbyrab]

There does seem to be a new type of listing on eBay, typically it's for new stock but at much higher than retail prices and normally the listing sits for months at a time.
I assume every now and then some unwary punter who doesn't do any research or read the listing carefully falls into the trap. Take this listing, it's been on for at least two months and the case their selling is at least twice the list price. They haven't highlighted the fact that the strobes and battery are not included, it's just for the case, but they do have wording to the effect that any misunderstanding about content, then the package listing will prevail, and of course the listing only ever mentions the case. Clearly though it sets out to trick the foolish.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/381016355099?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[Ko.Fe.]

It used to be that camera equipment suffering from any blemish or operative flaw was worth only a small fraction of equipment in perfect condition.... Does anybody have any theories?

Yes. It looks like where are less clumsy clueless dummies from the past and more handy people who could fix it now. 😀

Seriously, it is still cheaper to buy something which isn't perfect and google it how to fix it. Instead of paying hundreds for repair service.
You know what internet brings also? Repair manuals.

Why here is demand for old and non perfect stuff?
Because they stopped to make it new and perfect long time ago.

For example - used film P&S. Nobody sells them locally as used to be for one dollar. Years ago my fishing buddies would buy them to use as flash. They were everywhere. Last year I was able to find two for $5 each. One in the store and another on local classifieds.

You also need to make inflation adjustment for pricing before e-bay existence and now.

 

[tunalegs]

Something I see a lot of lately are extremely overpriced "vintage" lenses - listed as "rare" although a dozen examples are currently for sale online, and usually have been for sale online for months because the price is too high and the rarity imagined.

But I think that's a slightly different issue than the more general development of high prices for equipment in not so good condition.

In the old car hobby, it used to be advised not to buy an "orphan" (ie. from a company or brand that went under) car unless it was 100% complete and near perfect - because parts would be so hard to find the car was virtually worthless in any lesser condition. Now that a lot of "rare" parts are not so rare thanks to the internet, such cars are no longer hopeless projects if bought in less than perfect condition. Consequently value of off-brand collector cars has risen in the past ten or so years.

But this thinking doesn't really transfer over to cameras or lenses, so I can't explain it that way. Although it may play into a more general mindset about paying for things you wouldn't have seriously considered buying for any price years ago.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I realize old equipment is not going to be in mint condition, but I agree with the OP that I see a lot of used gear that has serious problems, like fungus, and they're still asking and often getting, top dollar. I don't get it. Something I've seen a lot on RFF is equipment listed as having had a CLA, then they'll say something like, "Slow speeds are gummed up" or "Meter doesn't work". Huh? What the Hell did the repairman do to "CLA" this thing is he returned it to you not functioning right, and why did you accept that from him? I don't understand.

 

[Darshan]

Are buyers just more clueless?

I think so..

I know I was, many years ago.. 😡:bang:😡:bang:

 

[Pioneer]

I realize old equipment is not going to be in mint condition, but I agree with the OP that I see a lot of used gear that has serious problems, like fungus, and they're still asking and often getting, top dollar. I don't get it. Something I've seen a lot on RFF is equipment listed as having had a CLA, then they'll say something like, "Slow speeds are gummed up" or "Meter doesn't work". Huh? What the Hell did the repairman do to "CLA" this thing is he returned it to you not functioning right, and why did you accept that from him? I don't understand.

I completely agree with this one. I see this, kind of shake my head, and move on.

In the back of my head I kind of suspect that the seller, or a friend, was the tech that did the cleaning. In addition a little oil was added where it looked like it should go and then things were bolted back together, generally speaking.

 

[splitimageview]

Lots of possibilities here...without pointing to specific listings.

I do see a lot of clueless sellers, however.

- think something is rare when it isn't
-who have no clue when it comes to accurate descriptions ("Mint except for the scratches and the dent and the meter doesn't work")
-some friend told them it was 'rare' and 'worth a lot of money' when it's really a $100 item.

A buddy of mine often joke about ebay lens listings:

"Hey, here's another one that is 'mint with fungus.'

🙂

 

[Darthfeeble]

The two words that will make me move on to the next ad are "Extremely Rare". Seems like they precede all ads that typify what you're talking about.

 

[thegman]

I guess we all have different ideas of what represents a 'broken' or damaged camera.

For example, I saw on eBay, a Plaubel Makina with broken meter, it did however come with a VC II meter as a replacement, and was priced about the same as functioning models. For me, that's broken, and not worth anything like the price of a non-broken one. For others, they may feel that the VC II meter replaces the built-in meter more than adequately, and not be fussed at all.

On the other hand, I'm not bothered about a little haze, fungus or scratches on a lens, assuming it's priced OK. I know others simply wouldn't go anywhere near a lens with such issues.

I think we all just have different ideas as to what represents a real fault and what does not.

Additionally, some people are in no rush to sell, and will just wait, and wait until they get the price they want.

 

[Pherdinand]

people just have more money to waste, that's where i agree.
It's a supply-and-demand thing. Apparently there's plenty of demand.

 

[Vobluda]

I cant agree on that, I found prices in at least half ads listed on RFF being ridiculous and often even higher than ebay.

"Realistic prices seem to be featured in the ads listed on RFF, at least most of them.

 

[mfunnell]

I guess we all have different ideas of what represents a 'broken' or damaged camera.

Too true. I recently bought a black Nikon F2 with a dinged-up unmetered prism for a bit less than AU$150 shipped from Japan to OZ. Accidently. KEH prices for worse-condition (black) finders with no attached camera trade in multiples of the price. I simply bid $100 (south-pacific pesos, not real dollars) and assumed I'd be out-bid almost immediately, but I wasn't. Not only did I acquire a fully-functional camera but, given what they trade for elsewhere, it seems a bargin (though no doubt someone will tell me they bought a better one for $2.50).

But it's of no use to a collector. While functionally irrelevant, there is a big ding on the prism and the camera is rather brassed and beat-up looking. Yet fully functional. I imagine there are people who would prefer the opposite. I didn't even intend to buy it - but I love it already (perhaps for the wrong reasons) and I'll use it this weekend.

I don't actually see it as poor equipment, per se but rather as good equipment in poor cosmetic condition. Maybe I overpaid for it, maybe I underpaid. I'm not sure ... perhaps someone could tell me...

...Mike

 

[thegman]

I cant agree on that, I found prices in at least half ads listed on RFF being ridiculous and often even higher than ebay.

I would probably agree on that, sometimes RFF will have a superb price on something, but 90% of the time, there is cheaper on eBay.

I think eBay gets an extremely poor press sometimes, but I've bought and sold hundreds of items, very few problems. People call it 'fleabay' and all the rest, but it's just normal people selling normal stuff.

The vast size of the market and competition in eBay seems to drive prices down. When I sell something on eBay, I look for the cheapest example of what I'm selling (in comparable condition) and mark down by a little bit. Whether we like it or not, a large, globally accessible market, will almost certainly drive down prices*.

*For better or worse, I don't think low prices are always a net benefit.

 

[mfunnell]

I would probably agree on that, sometimes RFF will have a superb price on something, but 90% of the time, there is cheaper on eBay.

Perhaps you're right, perhaps not. I can certainly attest that all the high value (or at least high price) items I've bought through RFF have been pleasant transactions - and that really matters to me when paying that much money. It may be that my confidence is or was misplaced, but a glitch in the process of a $thousands item seemed much easier to deal with when corresponding with an RFF member with track record than I might have felt with an ebay seller I'd previously had no interraction with. And vice versa, I'd guess, from the sellers point of view. Both ebay and the RFF market have their place, to my mind.

...Mike

 

[lynnb]

Hey Mike, congratulations on the F2, enjoy!

It's not just eBay - over the last year I've found charity/thrift stores in Sydney (some, not all) have taken to vastly over-pricing old film SLRs - quite frequently with obvious defects, like badly corroded battery compartments and missing battery compartment hatches, lots of internal mould, jammed shutters etc. However, genuine bargains do come along from time to time, like a Nikkormat FTn with Nikkor 50/1.4 for $15, both in excellent condition.