sepiareverb
genius and moron
And the commemorative final Noctilux is one way they are trying to do this.
But, if you do all your buying secondhand what does their survival matter?
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Opinion? no. Using the pieces new or second hand certainly gives those who care to consider things carefully plenty of knowledge about the qualities of lenses and cameras. But what insight does using the cameras give anyone into the best business practices of Leica in an instance like this? Zero. I think the much maligned collectors are the ones who should be chiming in here.
Once again, why gripe over something that has no meaning to most shooters? The collectors have been a big part of the Leica market for quite a while now, ignoring such a lucrative market seems stupid to me (but then I'm not in any position to really know). We've all had plenty of time to buy a Noctilux, and as stated above there are several available right now on ebay, and from some of my usual sources as well. If you must have one, it is quite possible.
kevin m
Veteran
So is this the new consensus on whose opinions matters and whose don't?
Unlike the majority of the people who post here, I actually used my Leicas to earn money, not to sit on a shelf and look pretty, though I appreciate that aspect of it, too. So that's my bias. I personally knew two other wedding photographers who used Leica M's as their main cameras, and I knew of many others, including a couple of the best in the business. But that was back in the "film days" of reliable M6TTL's and M7's. Now, in the digital age, I know of only one wedding photographer who uses the M8 as his main camera. If it doesn't matter to anyone at Leica that their cameras are no longer regarded as reliable, go-to tools, then fine. But it is a risky change of direction for a once-proud company to lose that arrow from their quiver, and rely only on the whims of hobbyists and collectors to keep them solvent.
Captain
Well-known
If you believe that then you are truly the one that misses the point. If any customer doesnt like the value for money they get, the attitudes of a particular company, even its environmental credentials the will vote with their feet and walk, thats basic market competition. Do you believe Leica doesn't listen to customer criticisms? The opposite is true, they are very sensitive to their market and users.
But this thread isnt about that, its about a lens that is sold by Leica themselves for half the price without the fancy box. I think its more than reasonable for people to question the value added in such an item
Its not up to you to determine what opinion is of more value to me. Posts by people with that level of "self importance" generally are the ones that go unheeded.
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kevin m
Veteran
Actually, now that I think about it, I can't imagine a better person to ask than a customer who was using your cameras, then stopped. If I were making those cameras, I'd sure want to know why that was.
gdi
Veteran
Now you are on to something!
How much should Leica care what you think if you are already willing to buy anything they produce at any price? And to try to devalue others' opinions by pointing out that you sold work made with one of them seems even more irrelevant to me. I doubt they care what you do with the camera as long as you buy it - matters not whether you are amateur or pro.
It does seem they would be more interested in the opinions of those who respect their products (past, present, or future) and want to see them prosper, but have turned away from the brand for specific reasons. Unless they have no desire to increase market share.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
No, but it is up to me to determine whose opinions I value, and personally, I tend to devalue people who hide behind pseudonums.
Your views on democracy and capitalism are interesting, too. I can see a difference, even if you can't. In a democracy, everyone has an equal say. In capitalism, people vote with their money. Taken to its extreme, this means that those who don't buy new Leicas are completely irrelevant, but as others have pointed out, the wise company will pay attention even to non-customers -- and then decide how much weight to attribute to their views.
Cheers,
R.
kevin m
Veteran
I'm not a "non-customer," Roger, I'm a former customer. Big difference. I'm inclined to like their gear, and I'm willing to pay a premium for it, but I'm put off by the relatively poor performance of the M8. Not image quality, but usability and reliability. If they were as stone-reliable as the M6TTL's, I would have gulped hard and bought a pair.
I put hundreds of rolls of film thru my TTL's, 35 Aspherical Summilux on one, 50 pre-Asph Summilux on the other, so please explain to me why my opinion shouldn't count, but the opinion of an insider like yourself should.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Absolute bull (not directed at you, btw). I have a "classic" M6, with the glare-free optics. I wouldn't give it up. Nor my M2, for that matter
sepiareverb
genius and moron
So is this the new consensus on whose opinions matters and whose don't?
Not at all. Our opinion is just that, an opinion of a customer, with likely little knowledge of the financial workings of the company. I'd expect the folks at Leica would have a better idea of how to run the company. If we disagree so be it.
Again, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. There are some major differences between a completely manual camera and a nearly wholly electronic one. That a company the size of Leica is moving slowly into this new domain doesn't seem that odd to me. But I'm no big wheel, just a working photographer.
kevin m
Veteran
Me either. Like I said before, I'm amazed they got it done at all. But I would be equally dismayed if they don't fine tune it a bit.
WoolenMammoth
Well-known
this thread gets more and more amusing. the bitterness that some of you people have is staggering.
so, the sentiment on this board and other places, by some people is, by rote, the m8 sucks the m8 sucks the m8 sucks the m8 sucks.
Now you have everyone here, this lens is too expensive this lens is too expensive this lens is too expensive and this whining and scrutiny compounds itself all the way down to people on this board complaining about a red dot sticker on a camera like it was religion, what type of tape to cover it with, where to get a black dot srticker and why the guy that sells them charges too much.
If it takes a 100 rich people who will never take a photo with a humidor lens to provide leica with the profit which in my fantasy will be applied to R&D the M9 so it can rise to the standards that all the snobs here hold the m8 in contempt for not meeting, what on earth is the F'ing problem??????????
And now some of you will debate that.
I personally would LOVE to buy a digital camera but sure as hell aint going to buy one that doesnt meet my criteria. If the company has a windfall half million dollar profit that could be applied to development, my chances of them bringing a camera to market that I would actually purchase are that much higher. If getting an M9 in my hands means that Thurston Howell has to buy the last batch of Noct's all himself, I would sincerely like to think that as photographers we would, as a community, put together a group effort to find the damn SS Minow ourselves. But no, people just want to gripe.
Whats a better situation for all of us, 100 people buy a new noct for $1500 so they can use it on a "broken" M8 or 100 people buy a $20,000 humidor lens they'll never use so maybe we can all have the chance to buy an M9 that will work the way we feel it "should"?
Its a shame they didnt list the last batch of lenses for more money.
Some of you guys cant see the forest or the trees.
so, the sentiment on this board and other places, by some people is, by rote, the m8 sucks the m8 sucks the m8 sucks the m8 sucks.
Now you have everyone here, this lens is too expensive this lens is too expensive this lens is too expensive and this whining and scrutiny compounds itself all the way down to people on this board complaining about a red dot sticker on a camera like it was religion, what type of tape to cover it with, where to get a black dot srticker and why the guy that sells them charges too much.
If it takes a 100 rich people who will never take a photo with a humidor lens to provide leica with the profit which in my fantasy will be applied to R&D the M9 so it can rise to the standards that all the snobs here hold the m8 in contempt for not meeting, what on earth is the F'ing problem??????????
And now some of you will debate that.
I personally would LOVE to buy a digital camera but sure as hell aint going to buy one that doesnt meet my criteria. If the company has a windfall half million dollar profit that could be applied to development, my chances of them bringing a camera to market that I would actually purchase are that much higher. If getting an M9 in my hands means that Thurston Howell has to buy the last batch of Noct's all himself, I would sincerely like to think that as photographers we would, as a community, put together a group effort to find the damn SS Minow ourselves. But no, people just want to gripe.
Whats a better situation for all of us, 100 people buy a new noct for $1500 so they can use it on a "broken" M8 or 100 people buy a $20,000 humidor lens they'll never use so maybe we can all have the chance to buy an M9 that will work the way we feel it "should"?
Its a shame they didnt list the last batch of lenses for more money.
Some of you guys cant see the forest or the trees.
maddoc
... likes film again.
I found this statement interesting since I am one of these buying all Leica stuff second-hand (because I prefer the older lenses) but have my gear serviced by Leica. So their (Leica's) survival matters in terms of available high quality service to me.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Point taken. There are many other folks who do admirable work on Leica bodies and lenses as well, but point taken.
Couldn't agree more. Seems like a well thought out plan almost...
kevin m
Veteran
I'm amazed that one can make such a determination from behind a computer screen.
Did anyone here actually say such a thing?
The M8 needs improvement to be a fully-functional, no excuses tool like the film M bodies are. That's the gist. If selling these lenses helps fund those improvements, then fantastic. But the company has a track record of pimping out its own reputation lately for short-term profit, and I hope they get back to their roots and concentrate on performance more than image.
Is this necessary? Isn't it possible to make an argument without name-calling?
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WoolenMammoth
Well-known
Couldn't agree more. Seems like a well thought out plan almost..
youd think this would be obvious to more people, you know?
bob338
Well-known
just saw this on ebay...
http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-50MM-F1-N...oryZ3323QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-50MM-F1-N...oryZ3323QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem