The Leica SL: What is Leica thinking?

[YYV_146]

I would like to see Leica get rid of video and live view from the M now that they have an alternative. Bring it back down to the size of a film M as well.

Why? There are so many excellent lenses that demand live view for accurate focusing and composition. I might again be in a minority in preferring wide and fast lenses, but I have three M lenses below 35mm. Even 35mm is tough on a .68x for us who wear glasses when shooting. If I buy a digital M I'll probably only shoot 50 and 75 through the RF window.

Agree with the size part, though. The M6 is much better in hand than any of the digital Ms.

 

[_goodtimez]

Ok .... I was prepared to be a little reticent until I saw this pic over at FB.

They have to be kidding .... it's the Edsel reborn! 😱

Boy this is big and ugly and expensive !
Is SL for Super Large ?

 

[YYV_146]

There are important qualities to this camera that do differentiate it from the competition. For example, the Leica SL shares much of the well-liked Leica S UI. It's simple but allows configuration. It also works well with M lenses according to the first reports.

For M lens use, I don't see real problem regarding the camera size without actually handling the beast. The same, of course, goes to confirming that the UI liked by many others really fits my needs. On paper, it looks pretty good. The weight increase is some 40% over my M8, which is significant and mostly unwelcome. I was certainly hoping for a smaller overall footprint, but this is based on Leica Q specs and the requirements of an M lens user. These obviously were not the driving principles of the Leica SL design.

It seems the initial price rumors were quite correct, and I must say I factored them into my expectations to some degree. Otherwise, again based on Leica Q, I was hoping for about 1000-1500 euro less for the body. Even that would have been a steep price for anyone who is specification-shopping among the competition.

The Leica S UI makes sense if you're in a studio or other controlled environment. But workhorses like the D4s or 645Z are covered with buttons for a good reason. When you're actually under stress to get consistent shots with time constraints and a lot of unknown variables, having everything 1-button deep is a huge asset.

Which again goes to the contradictory nature of the SL. It won't appeal to studio enthusiasts with its lackluster strobe support and *only* 24 megapixels. Not saying that 24 isn't enough, but if you're already in a studio and have things bolted down, more resolution never hurts. It also won't appeal to more spontaneous types because the control layout isn't quite versatile enough, and I suspect that with relatively slow AF tracking the camera can't machine-gun through important scenes like an 1dx could. The 1dx tracks at 14fps...

 

[bobby_novatron]

I'm sorry, but the lens in that dpreview.com photo is absolutely huge. It takes 82mm filters. * cough cough * And I thought my Canon 70-200 was big! The lenses for the SL are so large they almost look comical. As somebody already mentioned on a different RFF thread, maybe the "SL" stands for "SO LARGE!"

But what do I know? I hope Leica sells tons of SL cameras. Then they'll still have the money to coax more performance and upgrades for the M-bodies.

 

[jsrockit]

Why? There are so many excellent lenses that demand live view for accurate focusing and composition. I might again be in a minority in preferring wide and fast lenses, but I have three M lenses below 35mm. Even 35mm is tough on a .68x for us who wear glasses when shooting. If I buy a digital M I'll probably only shoot 50 and 75 through the RF window.

Agree with the size part, though. The M6 is much better in hand than any of the digital Ms.

Why? because it is my preference... that's it. Liveview didn't exist in the M until recently... now it is a must have item? I like my RF to be a RF.

 

[Lss]

The Leica S UI makes sense if you're in a studio or other controlled environment. But workhorses like the D4s or 645Z are covered with buttons for a good reason. When you're actually under stress to get consistent shots with time constraints and a lot of unknown variables, having everything 1-button deep is a huge asset.

There are different needs and preferences. A lot depends on how configurable the UI actually is (I have never used the S myself).

 

[uhoh7]

As a professional I would not buy this camera and guess there will be few that will. Its not as much about price as it is the lack of long fast glass and mature system.

I agree here, though I think the camera will sell fine, because they won't so many.

Compared to a D810, it's a lonely thing, in the autofocus universe. If it had a 500/4 all the way to UWA, you would start to see it more places.

But on the other hand, what it does offer are the M lenses, which are worshipped by many pros. That capability, combined with the video and other techie features will be enough.

All the "it's ugly" comments make me wonder if these critics have done anything but look at the midget model holding it. That image is pure bashing, on purpose, it should be obvious.

A careful look will reveal an exquisite build, the Sony is a toy in comparison, though those straight line have killed ergos. Ming's hand hurt in a short time with the big zoom.

Many are mad because it's not they want: small, simple, M-cool and free.

I'll never own one, but I very much admire the thing. 🙂

 

[GaryLH]

- What seems, on paper, to be fast AF and fast operation in general

- A video mode that isn't gimped to protect a dedicated video camera lineup (see: Canon). I bet Leica have asked Panasonic for advice on video as well. Assuming that the quality is up to GH4 standards, 4:2:2 10-bit output, 4k30 and 1080p120, stabilised Leica zooms, weather sealing, zebras, mic-levels, and the ability to mount almost every kind of lens would make for an amazing video setup. Of course, there are many other factors in what makes for a good video camera, but it looks promising.
.

According to the Shutterbug article Panasonic had a hand in both the af and video electronics.

Gary

 

[jsrockit]

Many are mad because it's not they want: small, simple, M-cool and free.

I'll never own one, but I very much admire the thing. 🙂

Good way to sum it all up.

 

[Samouraï]

I think it's a lovely looking camera--looks as though Leica took the industrial design of the original Sony A7 (mark I) to its conclusion. It's cool and weird. I'd be happy to have and use one if someone gave it to me. Hell, I want one, but I'd never buy one...not that I could afford it anyway. Another 24mp full-frame CMOS sensor? How boring, even if it turns out to be the prettiest CMOS sensor on the market. And too bad the reference 50mm Summilux-SL is still a year away. Maybe we'll see what it can do with the 50 Apo-Summicron and an adapter.

The contrast-detection AF may perform amazingly well in good light, but without phase-detection AF, where else can this camera really perform at a professional level (besides in a controlled environment)!? What I don't understand is why a studio photographer (presumably the the target audience) would be shooting this over a leaf-shutter medium format camera. I thought mirrorless, digital medium format was the next big market, what with the rumors about Sony and Canon preparing medium format offerings. Leica could have led this new market, and I would have loved seeing a similarly-sized, mirrorless S-type medium format-ish camera.

 

[Ronald M]

The same people who buy new M240s which cost $7200?


But arguably there is something special about the M240, being at the time one of four production digital rangefinders in the world, and the only one with live view. It also have a native lens system of 100+ lenses...




The peaking implementation in the M cameras leaves much to be desired. I was mostly thinking about what fuji did with the X100T...a live magnified view in the optical viewfinder.




Exactly. At $3,000 this is a nice, premium competitor to the A7II or XT1. At $7,500...not really.

You mean the Leica name and superior service are not worth $4500 extra?

It also has those beautiful sharp corners and edges so it looks like a 1960 Japanese SLR but more so. They should have gotten a designer.

Had I not sold most of my R glass when they said they will never make a R10 for them, I might have still given it some consideration. But they are now in Nikon mounts.

Leica M and pro Nikons are all I need.

 

[Kate-the-Great]

What Leica was thinking is that this is a studio camera, a mini S2 (itself a camera that has gained some popularity amongst high-end commercial photographers). If you're a RF shooter who likes the M-system, this isn't the camera for you. And this isn't the end of the M's- there will surely be an M360 or something soon enough; they're totally different market segments. The M system is fantastic and will live on, just as it has for the past 50 years of SLR dominance.

I'm honestly a bit shocked at all the hostility and broad generalizations I'm seeing about this system from what is otherwise an astoundingly reasonable community. I wouldn't use my X-E1 the same way I use my 5D; they're different tools for different uses. One wouldn't use an M240 the same as this SL; they're different tools for different uses. Sure, there will absolutely be fools who buy this as an expensive trinket, just as there are fools who buy M9's and Lamborghinis and loaded-up Mac Pros as expensive trinkets. But unlike some high-end cameras (*coughSonyBladcough*), this looks to be a legitimate system for high-end use. There will be more lenses, and they will be enormous because they will be optimized for the high performance at wide apertures that studio photographers want. That's fine because the SL does not have anything to do with the M.

As for the SL vs the Sony A7; it would be nice if this SL had a 36MP+ sensor to really compete with low-end medium format (of which I'm including the likes of the D810, 5Ds, A7r as well as S2, P645Z) but I am sure that the usability will be much better than the A7. It is well-known that while the A7 makes lovely images, actually using the camera is more akin to programming a VCR than operating a fine photographic tool. The SL on the other hand seems more similar to the S2; not the same experience as using an M but nonetheless possessing a very refined and photographer-oriented interface.

If I had the $$$, I'd absolutely purchase an SL. And I'd also purchase an M9 😉 Each tool to it's own task 🙂

 

[robbeiflex]

I would like to see Leica get rid of video and live view from the M now that they have an alternative. Bring it back down to the size of a film M as well.

Yeah! +1 and 10 char

 

[Kate-the-Great]

And I would like to re-iterate, that I do not agree that this has anything to do with Leica "betraying" or "abandoning" the Rangefinder folks. The M9 and M240 are wonderful cameras with a large following, and in the next ~18months I expect Leica to release an updated M body. Saying that the release of the SL or the Q or the T means Leica doesn't care about Rangefinders anymore seems to me a bit like saying that Chevy doesn't care about trucks anymore because they're developing the Bolt, or that Apple stopped caring about Macbooks when they made the iPad.

 

[lcpr]

According to the Shutterbug article Panasonic had a hand in both the af and video electronics.

Gary

That's great news then. Just looked at the spec sheet and it has V-log too, honestly at £5k it might be right there with Canon's 1DC, especially when you take adapters into account.

 

[robbeiflex]

Last time that I checked the reaction to it on LUF was pretty similar.

LUF is barely just "outside RFF". If Leica would ask their existing clients what they want, the answer would be a smaller M. (If they ever ask me, that is how I will respond.)

This is clearly about reaching new potential clients that wouldn't buy an M. Think of how many people there are out there with the means to buy a Leica but not the time or background in photography to really master an M. Then think of an AE, AF, zoom capable SL sitting in those nice black and red display cabinets in all of those new Leica stores. Then in those terms maybe Leica is on to something here.

I wouldn't buy one, but I think there is a large market out there for this camera.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

What Leica was thinking is that this is a studio camera, a mini S2 (itself a camera that has gained some popularity amongst high-end commercial photographers). If you're a RF shooter who likes the M-system, this isn't the camera for you. And this isn't the end of the M's- there will surely be an M360 or something soon enough; they're totally different market segments. The M system is fantastic and will live on, just as it has for the past 50 years of SLR dominance.

I'm honestly a bit shocked at all the hostility and broad generalizations I'm seeing about this system from what is otherwise an astoundingly reasonable community. I wouldn't use my X-E1 the same way I use my 5D; they're different tools for different uses. One wouldn't use an M240 the same as this SL; they're different tools for different uses. Sure, there will absolutely be fools who buy this as an expensive trinket, just as there are fools who buy M9's and Lamborghinis and loaded-up Mac Pros as expensive trinkets. But unlike some high-end cameras (*coughSonyBladcough*), this looks to be a legitimate system for high-end use. There will be more lenses, and they will be enormous because they will be optimized for the high performance at wide apertures that studio photographers want. That's fine because the SL does not have anything to do with the M.

nicely put!

 

[robbeiflex]

And I would like to re-iterate, that I do not agree that this has anything to do with Leica "betraying" or "abandoning" the Rangefinder folks. The M9 and M240 are wonderful cameras with a large following, and in the next ~18months I expect Leica to release an updated M body. Saying that the release of the SL or the Q or the T means Leica doesn't care about Rangefinders anymore seems to me a bit like saying that Chevy doesn't care about trucks anymore because they're developing the Bolt, or that Apple stopped caring about Macbooks when they made the iPad.

Kate, you are far too sensible and seem to have the rare gift of common sense that is so lacking in this world. Now let's let the naysayers have their word, or we'll never hear the end of it. ;-)

 

[rbelyell]

Boy this is big and ugly and expensive !
Is SL for Super Large ?

no i think its for Super Lame. its actually the singular most ridiculous looking rig i have ever seen in my many decade dance with photography. absolutely absurd, and if it was done by anyone else you wouldnt be able to hear a helicopter over your head for the din of criticism--nay outright guffaws of laughter--that would be coming from this forum.

 

[ForestCap]

Leica SL Typ 601
Dimension: 147 × 104 × 39 mm
Weight: 847 g with battery.
copied from bhphotovide0 com

Mamiya 7
Camera body : 159(L) x 112(H) x 66(D)mm :
Camera body : 920g

Just a quick and unfair comparison.