Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
What dictates the availability of our current form of film in 120 and 135 formats is the motion picture industry. While many pictures are shot digitally, the prints that are distributed to the thousands of projection booths are largely still film.
Film production and projection equipment is 100% paid off, in-full these days, so aside from maintenance using film is pure profit for the movie studios.
Motion picture prints for distribution are a few tens of thousands of feet per-film. More film in one movie than most serious amateurs will shoot in 20 years.
Just about or slightly less than half of the older yet profitable projection booths in the US are still shooting through film so this is where the rubber really meets the road. Many regions in the world have gone solely digital due to environmental regulations and conversely, many regions still shoot only film in theaters.
We've had this discussion before in a few threads here on RFF and it's been hashed out that once digital projection truly takes over in the next few years, there will be no profit for any of the companies to lay expensive (and highly regulated) silver onto plastic backing. THAT will be the end of wide-scale film availability and the still photo market will come to rely solely on production firms such as Ilford and whoever decides to purchase Efke, etc.
As for the very last roll to be produced, I'd say it will be 120 or something similar. Adding perforations to film is one more critical QC step that isn't expensive per roll or per 1000ft can but is over the course of a few million feet of a production run. 35mm film started out for movie projection and it was almost a courtesy that it was used for handheld miniature format cameras. Perfs are another reason that 35mm may die a few thousand feet before 120, simply because of little production issues like cutting and perforation.
Phil Forrest
Film production and projection equipment is 100% paid off, in-full these days, so aside from maintenance using film is pure profit for the movie studios.
Motion picture prints for distribution are a few tens of thousands of feet per-film. More film in one movie than most serious amateurs will shoot in 20 years.
Just about or slightly less than half of the older yet profitable projection booths in the US are still shooting through film so this is where the rubber really meets the road. Many regions in the world have gone solely digital due to environmental regulations and conversely, many regions still shoot only film in theaters.
We've had this discussion before in a few threads here on RFF and it's been hashed out that once digital projection truly takes over in the next few years, there will be no profit for any of the companies to lay expensive (and highly regulated) silver onto plastic backing. THAT will be the end of wide-scale film availability and the still photo market will come to rely solely on production firms such as Ilford and whoever decides to purchase Efke, etc.
As for the very last roll to be produced, I'd say it will be 120 or something similar. Adding perforations to film is one more critical QC step that isn't expensive per roll or per 1000ft can but is over the course of a few million feet of a production run. 35mm film started out for movie projection and it was almost a courtesy that it was used for handheld miniature format cameras. Perfs are another reason that 35mm may die a few thousand feet before 120, simply because of little production issues like cutting and perforation.
Phil Forrest
dabick42
Well-known
I have been an amateur user of film (120 and 135) for nearly 50 years.
I've never owned, used or even handled a digital camera.
For me, photography is using an all-metal precision instrument that has good quality clock-work inside it, with a service life measured in human lifetimes.
Am I concerned about the future availability of film ?
Damn right I am, because for me there's no alternative that suits my old-school, old technology mindset and skill level.
When I can no longer feed my Leicas, Nikon F's, Canon FD's, Pentax M42's, Voigtlander Prominents and Rollei TLR's, my photographic journey will be over and I'll take up sketching and/or painting.
I believe HCB did the same when he became disillusioned with the ''dumbed down'' direction that photography was taking...
I've never owned, used or even handled a digital camera.
For me, photography is using an all-metal precision instrument that has good quality clock-work inside it, with a service life measured in human lifetimes.
Am I concerned about the future availability of film ?
Damn right I am, because for me there's no alternative that suits my old-school, old technology mindset and skill level.
When I can no longer feed my Leicas, Nikon F's, Canon FD's, Pentax M42's, Voigtlander Prominents and Rollei TLR's, my photographic journey will be over and I'll take up sketching and/or painting.
I believe HCB did the same when he became disillusioned with the ''dumbed down'' direction that photography was taking...
But isn't photography more about the image than the equipment? I understand loving older cameras, they do feel different. But this seems extreme to me.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
More, yes. Solely, no. Different media produce different results.Many artists feel passionate about their chosen media.
Cheers,
R.
farlymac
PF McFarland
Film will die when the investment bankers, and fat-cat CEO's worrying about their stock options say it will.
PF
PF
DtheG
Established
1. There will be film so long as there is a demand
2. Manufacturing film will be a specialist 'craft' process, just like other kinds of artists materials.
3. 'Toy' cameras are a fad.
4. Demand for single use cameras will not survive long now practically every phone has a camera.
5. As mediun format has some advantages in terms of resolution etc it may have better prospects as an artists' medium.
6. Sheet film will last even longer.
7.Wet Plates will be an artists medium long after the last film factory has closed
2. Manufacturing film will be a specialist 'craft' process, just like other kinds of artists materials.
3. 'Toy' cameras are a fad.
4. Demand for single use cameras will not survive long now practically every phone has a camera.
5. As mediun format has some advantages in terms of resolution etc it may have better prospects as an artists' medium.
6. Sheet film will last even longer.
7.Wet Plates will be an artists medium long after the last film factory has closed
waynec
Established
Pertaining to film sales...
Pertaining to film sales...
I really believe it will all survive, but it really does come down to a question of economics. It would take a major downturn in the U.S., European, and Asian economies, let's say to the point of depression, or at least a very bad double dip recession, before you'll most likely will find shortages or production stops in the two least sold formats, unless of course you can cut all the formats out of one roll, which I believe is not so. It's all about energy really. If energy prices can maintain a level and perhaps roll back a little bit thru increased use of natural gas, solar, wind and other means, and chemicals (or silver) can maintain their prices without big increases again due to energy costs and shipping, we'll probably see continued supply with perhaps small coaters (hand to mouth firms) stopping because of equipment failures, or wage increases that tax their bottom line to the point of closing. Since we are in the midst of a renewed tightening of budgets (recession) we should at least see it's effects by the start of shooting season next year. Already according to the article posted at the top of the RFF page, digital sales are down pretty big over the last year, so we should expect film to follow downward to some degree. At this preliminary point, and looking at the worst U.S. response to their (b.s. fiscal cliff adage) or budget, I might say the percentage of sales loss will track double the loss of jobs percentage, at least. This depends obviously on the European response to their budget problems as well. I'm mostly positive tho on the U.S. resolving the budget, but too big or too little a response will be bad. If the markets hit the skids (go down) from now to the end of March, you'll know what affect it will have on film sales and thus availability next year.
Pertaining to film sales...
I really believe it will all survive, but it really does come down to a question of economics. It would take a major downturn in the U.S., European, and Asian economies, let's say to the point of depression, or at least a very bad double dip recession, before you'll most likely will find shortages or production stops in the two least sold formats, unless of course you can cut all the formats out of one roll, which I believe is not so. It's all about energy really. If energy prices can maintain a level and perhaps roll back a little bit thru increased use of natural gas, solar, wind and other means, and chemicals (or silver) can maintain their prices without big increases again due to energy costs and shipping, we'll probably see continued supply with perhaps small coaters (hand to mouth firms) stopping because of equipment failures, or wage increases that tax their bottom line to the point of closing. Since we are in the midst of a renewed tightening of budgets (recession) we should at least see it's effects by the start of shooting season next year. Already according to the article posted at the top of the RFF page, digital sales are down pretty big over the last year, so we should expect film to follow downward to some degree. At this preliminary point, and looking at the worst U.S. response to their (b.s. fiscal cliff adage) or budget, I might say the percentage of sales loss will track double the loss of jobs percentage, at least. This depends obviously on the European response to their budget problems as well. I'm mostly positive tho on the U.S. resolving the budget, but too big or too little a response will be bad. If the markets hit the skids (go down) from now to the end of March, you'll know what affect it will have on film sales and thus availability next year.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Big highlight: both 35mm and 120 Delta 3200 are coated on identical base. It's unusual, but possible. Cut film is different, though.
Cheers,
R.
dabick42
Well-known
@ jsrockit ----- I probably AM a bit extreme - my thoughts on photography are certainly in the minority (but by no means unique... ) in my local camera club.
I guess I'm too set in my photographic ways to change, after a lifetime of familiarity with film and darkroom practice.
I was a late convert to computer usage (only within the last 3 years) and computer-speak and software applications etc. are like so much Chinese to me !
No, I'm comfortable with film and light-tight boxes with just a lens and a shutter.
I'm just a 71 year-old Luddite at heart... !
I guess I'm too set in my photographic ways to change, after a lifetime of familiarity with film and darkroom practice.
I was a late convert to computer usage (only within the last 3 years) and computer-speak and software applications etc. are like so much Chinese to me !
No, I'm comfortable with film and light-tight boxes with just a lens and a shutter.
I'm just a 71 year-old Luddite at heart... !
Understandable and nothing wrong with this. Hopefully you'll get to use film for as long as you want to. I don't think it's dying anytime soon.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Nonsense
Coming from digital, I wish I knew film photography years and years ago.
Film photography is unique as a process, and it's integral to the way some of of us perceive photography.
To some of you here, if you don't care about the process, then fine, but don't assume that the view is universally and uniformly applicable to all of us.
f6andBthere
Well-known
It may not be an issue for many manufacturers until they find themselves in the position Efke was in ... where needed maintainence costs for their plant over shadowed their output and profit potential.
Surely all the film coating lines of most manufacturers out there have been around for years and may be pretty creaky by now. I've just checked in my Yellow Pages for 'film manufacturing equipment repairers' and can't seem to find any!
Surely all the film coating lines of most manufacturers out there have been around for years and may be pretty creaky by now. I've just checked in my Yellow Pages for 'film manufacturing equipment repairers' and can't seem to find any!
retnull
Well-known
I say film will last forever. They still manufacture typewriter ribbons, you know.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I've always thought that there was a certain irony in the potential fate of analog photography coming full circle to where it started. Sort of a rags to riches, to rags story.
I'll probably be right behind you. Mercury poisoning be damned...
Photo_Smith
Well-known
It may not be an issue for many manufacturers until they find themselves in the position Efke was in ... where needed maintainence costs for their plant over shadowed their output and profit potential.
Surely all the film coating lines of most manufacturers out there have been around for years and may be pretty creaky by now. I've just checked in my Yellow Pages for 'film manufacturing equipment repairers' and can't seem to find any!
Yep, not in yellow pages but you are still able to contact them if you want a new film coater:
http://www.tse-coating.ch/
They make both Kodak and Ilford's state of the art 54" curtain coaters.
Skiff
Well-known
Well, fact is that the 135 market is much much bigger compared to the 120 market. For example:
In 2001 about 28 million 35mm cameras were sold (excluding single use cams), but only 37 thousand medium format cameras (all data from CIPA).
Due to PMA in US alone 2010 36 million single use cameras were sold. That was more than the complete global 120 film market.
But nevertheless both formats will survive and outlive all of us.
This year we have even seen the rebirth of this strange (and superfluous) 110 format!
If there is a market for such a format, than there will be definitely a future market for serious formats like 135, 120 and sheet film.
We all remember the prognosis that instant film will die first, because with digital imaging delivering an instant picture on the camera monitor, there is no further need for instant print pictures like Polaroid.
But what happened despite this prognosis of all theses "experts"?
Instant film photography see a big revival with increasing sales.
Impossible project has huge success.
And Fujifilm has introduced new cameras for their Instax line. At this years Photokina they said there is a real boom for their Instax instant film and cameras. And they will increase their production and marketing.
The demand for instant film is coming especially from younger people.
If even instant film can survive in a digital age, than the other formats will also do.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I think it is stretching things to call Impossible Project a "huge success." You've got to give them props for getting folks to spend lots of money on a poor quality product, but they are a tiny niche at best. "Instant Fuzzy Art" film clearly is a concept with a limited sell by date. They surprised me, though, by finding a market for a pale reflection of Polaroid film.
Skiff
Well-known
I've tested the latest DSLRs like Nikon D800 against film:
DSLRs have the edge in sensivity, that is right.
But not in dynamic range. Here film is still king and significantly surpass all current sensors.
Resolution: It's a mixed bag: Slide film, some CN films and lots of BW films have significantly higher resolution at medium and higher object contrasts. The D800 has a bit higher resolution at low object contrasts (excepetion: High resolution BW films like Agfa Copex Rapid and Adox CMS 20 II, they surpass the D800 even at low contrasts).
You may have a look here:
http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/
Another excellent scientific test summary (four tests by different test labs):
http://www.aphog.de/index.php?option...d=401&Itemid=1
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
"But not in dynamic range. Here film is still king and significantly surpass all current sensors."
DXo says the dynamics range of the D800 is 14.5 EVs. That exceeds almost any film made.
DXo says the dynamics range of the D800 is 14.5 EVs. That exceeds almost any film made.